Thrills, Skills, and Publishing Deals: A Chat with Robert Gottlieb
Today, host Dave Temple is diving into the nitty-gritty of the publishing world with the legendary Robert Gottlieb, the chairman of Trident Media Group.
Robert has the inside scoop on how books go from mere words on a page to bestsellers that everyone’s talking about. We’re pulling back the curtain on what it really takes to run a top-tier talent agency and what separates a good writer from a great one.
As we chat, Robert shares his journey from being an assistant at the William Morris Agency to establishing himself as a titan in the literary agency world. He highlights the importance of understanding the unique qualities that make an author stand out in a sea of submissions.
We explore the nuances between literary and commercial fiction, uncovering what truly captivates editors and readers alike. Robert's insights into the shifting dynamics of publishing—especially with the rise of eBooks and the influence of social media on book sales—paint a vivid picture of today's literary landscape.
Get ready for a masterclass in how to navigate the complexities of getting published, with plenty of anecdotes and wisdom from Robert's extensive career. Whether you're a budding author or just a curious listener, there's gold to be mined in this conversation.
Learn more at TridentMediaGroup.com and WATCH/LISTEN/FOLLOW us at TheThrillerZone.com
Companies and people mentioned in this episode:
- Trident Media Group
- William Morris Agency
- Knopf
- Bertelsmann
- Alba Michel
- Frank Herbert
- Brian Herbert
- Leon Uris
- Random House
- Dune
- Sony
- Lionsgate
- Putnam Group
Keywords: thriller podcast, literary agent insights, Robert Gottlieb interview, publishing industry trends, how to write a bestseller, author career development, Trident Media Group, best practices for authors, commercial fiction vs literary fiction, storytelling techniques, international book markets, marketing for authors, navigating publishing contracts, building an author brand, literary agency secrets, author representation tips, the future of publishing, writing craft advice, book marketing strategies, understanding genre fiction
Transcript
Hello and welcome to the 234th episode of the Thriller Zone.
Speaker A:I'm your host, David Temple, and I am glad you are here.
Speaker A:Folks, today is going to be quite a day for you.
Speaker A:It is on the shorter side, but boy, is it sweet.
Speaker A:My guest today is Robert Gottlieb.
Speaker A:You ever heard of Trident Media Group?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:He happens to be the chairman and the father of Mark Gottlieb, who's been on the show twice.
Speaker A:And if you don't know that name, well, trust me, the publishing world certainly does.
Speaker A:He's worked with some of the biggest authors on the planet, helped launch careers, and built one of the most respected literary agencies in the world.
Speaker A:Today, we are going to kind of pull back the curtain on what it really takes to run a top tier talent agency.
Speaker A:How books become bestsellers, and what separates a good writer from a great one.
Speaker A:What's it take to make it in this business?
Speaker A:Whether you're an aspiring author or just curious how the book world works, guess what?
Speaker A:You're in for a treat.
Speaker A:Without any further ado, please welcome Robert Gottlieb to the Thriller Zone.
Speaker A:Before we start, do you prefer Robert.
Speaker B:Bob, Sally, I'd like your hybrid, if you don't mind.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:I like formal names.
Speaker A:I mean, my name's David, but you can say Dave, DT D in the house.
Speaker B:Okay, David.
Speaker B:I'll call you David.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So nice to meet.
Speaker B:By the way, the reason I like Robert is when I started as an assistant in the William Morris Agency's literary department to Owen Laster, then one of the great agents of the 20th century, Bob Gottlieb ran Knopf.
Speaker B:So Owen said to me, you really should go by Robert so people don't confuse you with Bob Gottlieb at Knopf.
Speaker B:And I said, okay, I'll take Robert.
Speaker A:Yeah, Yeah.
Speaker A:I could see how that could present a wee bit of a challenge.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Well, tell me if this is true, Robert.
Speaker A:Is it true that you went down the hall and said to your son, can I get on Dave Temple's Thriller Zone?
Speaker B:It's true.
Speaker A:That just blows my head right up.
Speaker A:Thank you very much.
Speaker B:Oh, it's my pleasure, my pleasure.
Speaker B:I've heard great things about you and, you know, Mark has been encouraging me to do more of this type of work.
Speaker B:Normally, I'm used to being in the background and not talking about myself or my client's business, but he encouraged me to do it as well.
Speaker B:So I said, sure, let's do it.
Speaker A:Well, two things.
Speaker A:I'm very flattered I'm honored.
Speaker A:We're going to get to all your accolades in a second and your son is one of my favorite people walking the planet.
Speaker A:He is just a gem.
Speaker B:He's a great guy.
Speaker B:He's a great guy.
Speaker B:And you know something?
Speaker B:Just a quick little anecdote.
Speaker B:Frederick Forsyth, a very good writer in London, a best selling author.
Speaker B:When Mark was 11 years old or 12 years old, I had to drop off a contract for him in London while I was there working and Mark came with me and Forsyth and Mark spent two hours talking about Forsyth's work.
Speaker B:And I was just sitting there in awe.
Speaker B:Mark had read it, Mark was familiar with it, and Forsyth was just amazed at the conversation between the two of them.
Speaker B:So Mark has always been a book lover all his life.
Speaker A:Well, it's so obvious.
Speaker A:We've had two conversations.
Speaker A:He's been on the show twice and both times he's just, he's elegant, he's insightful, he's really, really smart and, and he's so gracious.
Speaker A:So he's just that perfect combination.
Speaker A:I don't know what kind of an agent he is, but I'm hoping to one day.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:Well, you know, on Publishers Marketplace under thriller, agents, agents making deals for thrillers.
Speaker B:He's number one in the, in the world.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:I did not know that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Well, he learned from his dad, of course.
Speaker A:Apple doesn't fall far from the tree, right?
Speaker B:Yep, yep.
Speaker A:Well, I would like to.
Speaker A:First of all, we're launching June.
Speaker A:By the time this show drops, it'll be a couple of weeks into the month.
Speaker A:But I often, as you may or may not know, I interview the best authors in the world.
Speaker A:And I like to step outside the sandbox every once in a while and pull in guys like yourself, gals in the business who really are kind of sitting in the big offices, some of the ivory towers, but some of the, you know, back offices, and just let us writers know how the sausage is made.
Speaker A:So I would love to start because I'm just an inquisitive idiot.
Speaker A:I'd like to go inside your world for a minute and just kind of, kind of get a feel for a typical day of someone running one of the most successful literary agencies in the world.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:All right, so you want me to start?
Speaker A:Yeah, please do.
Speaker A:Yeah, we're rolling.
Speaker B:Good, good.
Speaker B:So, you know, you go into the office, you have your cup of coffee, relax a little while.
Speaker B:Agents come in, you know, support staff come in, agents come in in the morning.
Speaker B:And you know, we start off by communicating with each other, talking to each other, what's going on in the industry?
Speaker B:Have you heard anything?
Speaker B:Are you trying, you know, are you talking to authors that you need help with?
Speaker B:Where I can get on the phone with the agent and talk to a potential client who's considering Trident?
Speaker B:Talk about what we do, how we do it.
Speaker B:We sell direct in the foreign market.
Speaker B:We started that trend when I was.
Speaker B:When I started Triton, 99% of agents sold through foreign agents, and they didn't get really good service for it.
Speaker B:You know, boxes of books would be sent to these agents from agencies and publishers, and they would be shipped over in boxes to buyers and hope that one would get taken.
Speaker B:And I felt that that was not only an inefficient way of doing business, but not really a smart way of representing authors, because every author is unique, even though they may be writing in the same genre.
Speaker B:Each author's unique, each voice is unique.
Speaker B:You know, each history is special.
Speaker B:And so we decided to sell direct in major markets where we were talking to editors and publishers in the UK and throughout Europe and other parts of the world where we could pitch our clients.
Speaker B:And who better to do that than people who work with them every day and understand their work, appreciate their work.
Speaker B:And if you sit with a publisher like Alba Michel at the Frankfurt Book Fair from France, and the publisher says, we need a thriller, we know who exactly to submit because we know her taste.
Speaker B:Whereas sub agents would just, you know, ship over a box of books and hope that, you know, Alba Michel would like one of them.
Speaker A:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:So when I get on, when I talk to my colleagues about how, you know, I can help them sign clients and speak to.
Speaker B:To what we focus on, which is their careers, it's a different kind of conversation than they would often hear from other agencies.
Speaker B:Most agencies are very small, David.
Speaker B:They don't have the kind of reach that we do.
Speaker B:Many of them don't go to Frankfurt or London Book Fair.
Speaker B:They depend solely on sub agents to handle that for them.
Speaker B:So it's a, you know, we be, you know, so this is part of what I do.
Speaker B:It's a different approach.
Speaker B:It's very career oriented.
Speaker B:The agency is focused on career.
Speaker B:It's not just an individual agent who does it, whether it has to do with the work that we do in our contracts department.
Speaker B:You know, publishing has become very, very hard on authors.
Speaker B:And, you know, when you have big companies like Bertelsmann that refuse to budge on ebook royalties, not only in the United States, but globally, it's a challenge to.
Speaker B:To Put together deals that are going to be very beneficial to authors.
Speaker B:Beyond the advance.
Speaker B:The advance is an important component.
Speaker B:But all the terms in the contract are very important because in the United States, the buying term of copyright in Britain too, then you have licensing agreements outside the United States.
Speaker B:And how all that is constructed in contracts is very important.
Speaker B:That's, you know, something that we specialize in as well.
Speaker B:That's one reason, you know, the Frank that Brian Herbert or the Frank Herbert estate and I have been working together for so long because you know, we do incredible work for them abroad and audio is another world.
Speaker B:That's that you have to have, you know, specialization and understand because that's also a licensing business, although there are some agents and to give away those rights, you know, for term of copyright, which is a terrible mistake because you know, the, the licensing arrangements that you make come up every five or seven or eight years and for renewal and that's money in the pocket for the author.
Speaker B:That's how they pay their bills.
Speaker A:Well, there is so many questions I want to throw at you and I know I've only got 30 minutes, so I know that I'll, I'll shoot to it.
Speaker A:You've, you've shaped the careers are some of the biggest names in the publishing world.
Speaker A:I mean, what is it that you see in a writer that or a manuscript that tells you now this one is worth fighting for?
Speaker B:You know, it's an interesting question because it's really a combination of components.
Speaker B:It's the writing, of course, it's the storytelling capability.
Speaker B:Commercial fiction is very different than literary fiction.
Speaker B:You know, one is, you know, literary fiction is like going to a fine arts museum and loving and being, you know, getting connected with the work in, you know, in a certain high end style.
Speaker B:Commercial fiction is different.
Speaker B:You have to be a good writer, but you also have to be an incredible storyteller and storytelling and commercial fiction is somewhat different than what you see in literary fiction or a lot different.
Speaker B:It can be a lot different.
Speaker A:And you know what?
Speaker A:On that point, let's, let's drill down one level for listeners who may not, who may be new to the business and don't know quite that difference.
Speaker A:How would you differentiate between those two besides what you just referenced with the experience?
Speaker B:Well, you know, I think that with literary fiction, and I'm just speaking in very broad terms here because, you know, I don't want, you know, it be interpreted as the only, you know, only perspective.
Speaker B:But with literary fiction, it's an artistic, strictly an artistic adventure.
Speaker B:It's Like a Broadway play.
Speaker B:You can build a Broadway play around a group of people at a dinner table and you're listening to their discussion and their trials and tribulations.
Speaker B:In commercial fiction, it's really about a engine, an engine that drives the story from the very first page, hooking, know the book reader, the consumer, driving it through to the very end.
Speaker B:And that's one of the fundamental differences.
Speaker B:It's a one is more can be a more of a micro intellectual understanding and interest in, you know, what literary fiction, some literary fiction is versus a big, you know, stage, big story.
Speaker B:You know, I often tell commercial authors that if you write, if your writing is great, but your story doesn't work in terms of big fiction, it's very tough if your writing is mediocre, but the story you're telling is out of this world as a thriller writer, the likelihood is it's gonna sell.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So these are some of the fundamental differences.
Speaker A:Now, this is a slightly different tangent, but I was having lunch with my old buddy Jack Stewart, who is a military thriller wr just over the weekend, and we were talking about.
Speaker A:We were just.
Speaker A:We like to talk shop and business.
Speaker A:We were talking about romance.
Speaker A:We just brought it up.
Speaker A:And we were talking about the difference between the, like, different genres within that and how the market sells.
Speaker A:And it's so funny because it comes down to you might be telling the same story.
Speaker A:There's two points I want to make.
Speaker A:You might be telling the same story, but in one genre of romance, like say, for instance, dark romance, that impact will be different than just contemporary.
Speaker A:And then we were talking about, you know, what, what makes that so successful.
Speaker A:And, and it's.
Speaker A:It's kind of hard to understand fully, but.
Speaker A:And I don't know that you deal a whole lot in that world, but I actually do.
Speaker B:I have a lot of experience with that world.
Speaker B:You know, genre fiction is again, different than literary fiction.
Speaker B:Literary fiction is you start with a blank canvas and you paint, you know, a, A, you know, a beautiful painting, that is considered fine art.
Speaker B:But in the world of women's fiction, and I'm giving you a broad answer, David, if that's okay, is that there are rules of the genre.
Speaker B:Every genre has rules.
Speaker B:And so what's expected in historical romance fiction is different than you're going to find in contemporary romance fiction in terms of what, you know, the book, you know, how the book is constructed, the storytelling, and from the setting.
Speaker B:For instance, if you're doing a contemporary women's fiction novel, you're not going to do flashbacks, generally to, you know, to Victorian England, it's because what you're doing is then you're crossing over.
Speaker B:And a publisher is not going to respond well to that because it becomes a much more difficult sale in terms of what are they selling to the, you know, to the retailers, what are they telling them that the book is.
Speaker A:That makes so much sense.
Speaker A:Speaking of, I'm just going to stick with romance because I, I, we were, we were amazed, I'm amazed at what book talk TikTok's channel of books has done.
Speaker A:And I know that publishing's changed a lot over the years, especially in your business, and it's really changed.
Speaker A:It feels like more in the last 10 or 15 years.
Speaker A:And so between ebooks and audiobooks, as you mentioned and TikTok and even AI, what do you think has shifted the most for you and what still holds true no matter what the trends of the market does?
Speaker B:Well, I think first, great writing is number one.
Speaker B:Number two is that the blending of different genres oftentimes leads into a new part or new genre of fiction.
Speaker B:For instance, let's take fantasy romance.
Speaker B:You know, five years ago, 10 years ago, if you tried to sell a fantasy romance, publishers would say, well, what is it?
Speaker B:Is it fantasy or is it romance?
Speaker B:But that's also a generational difference because so many young people are growing up with gaming and, you know, certain types of, you know, movies and television.
Speaker B:And so they're used to an element that before would not have been considered, you know, a saleable work because of the crossover aspect.
Speaker B:Now that crossover of romance and fantasy is, you know, generating a lot of book sales.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, it blows my mind because we were just taught again to reference that conversation.
Speaker A:The volume of books sold back to your background and how you started Trident and what a powerhouse reputation it has, not in just books but to selling in film and tv, which is one thing I'm particularly interested having come from in front of the camera, being an actor in television and film and then behind the camera is both a writer, producer, director of a film.
Speaker A:I am fascinated by that.
Speaker A:And now as a writer wanting to take my stories to the screen.
Speaker A:I'm always trying to drill down on that.
Speaker A:What do you feel?
Speaker A:Because I want, want Robert's inside scoop.
Speaker A:What do you feel is, makes a story scream worthy in your eyes?
Speaker B:Well, you know, actually it's a complicated landscape because what works one day for Hollywood doesn't work the next day.
Speaker B:If you go in and you say this is very similar to, you know, this kind of film or this kind of Streaming television project.
Speaker B:They'll say, well, that's been done, even though it may be terrific.
Speaker B:So it's an ever shifting landscape, ground under your feet.
Speaker B:It used to be, for instance, that you could only sell frontless titles.
Speaker B:Hollywood did not want to hear about what the author wrote before or what was available before because they viewed that as being all passed on.
Speaker B:Dune is a good example.
Speaker B:We represent the Dune estate, right?
Speaker B:So the.
Speaker B: tic properties written in the: Speaker B:I represented Leon Uris estate.
Speaker B:He was the author of Exodus that starred Paul Newman.
Speaker B:We just sold Trinity.
Speaker B:A big story about the Irish in America has historical background, contemporary background.
Speaker B:That book was also written in the 60s or early 70s.
Speaker B:So there's a ferocious appetite for material now.
Speaker B:And the old rules don't apply in terms of, you know, we don't want to see something that is even six months old because it's been passed on by so many people.
Speaker B:The other thing, of course is high concept is very important now.
Speaker B:You know that because you've been around Hollywood and yourself and you know that, you know, that point of view, high concept means what is the marketing angle, you know, that they see in the story that drives the interest in the film.
Speaker B:We represent a book called Wonderful.
Speaker B:That book was, you know, starred Julia Roberts.
Speaker B: er list in the top five since: Speaker B:We just sold it for a Broadway musical.
Speaker B:That book was rejected all over New York by publishers.
Speaker B:It's a middle grade book because it was outside the wheelhouse of what publishers believed middle grade students would read.
Speaker B:Now this book changed the whole business because once it became a huge success, every publisher was chasing that story.
Speaker B:So Hollywood is also a little like that too.
Speaker B:Whatever works that, you know, they're interested in, it gets their attention.
Speaker B:And then of course, it's, you know, it depends on the, you know, the genre, the dynamics of the book.
Speaker B:If you're dealing with a company like Lionsgate, there are certain types of books they want to buy that they're, you know, that fit with their, you know, you know, business plans.
Speaker B:And, you know, they oftentimes look for books that represent ideas and concepts that have worked for them in the past.
Speaker A:You hear this phrase a lot in Hollywood.
Speaker A:Give me this, give me this.
Speaker A:But different.
Speaker A:Give me the saying, but different.
Speaker A:And I'm.
Speaker A:It's all.
Speaker A:It always makes me Chuckle.
Speaker A:Because I'm like, well, do you want that or do you want that?
Speaker A:With a twinge of this.
Speaker A:And then, you know, when the world started becoming.
Speaker A:And it's not a log line, but it's X meets Y in a blank kind of world, that became kind of the.
Speaker A:It feels like to me, you correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker A:The go to way to pitch a story.
Speaker A:Because it.
Speaker A:What it does is it.
Speaker A:It expedites the process.
Speaker A:It gets the listener, reader, viewer right to the point right away.
Speaker A:Correct?
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker B:But at the same time, David, Hollywood is made up.
Speaker B:95% of people can say no.
Speaker B:5% could say yes.
Speaker B:So when you're meeting with people at production houses and studios, they want to cast a wide net, hoping that something in that net connects.
Speaker B:I remember meeting with Sony years ago and discussing a wonderful book called the Gray man by Mark Greaney.
Speaker B:And, you know, their take on it was very different than the take of the company that ultimately bought it and made it into a Netflix series.
Speaker B:So part of it also is the individual that you're talking to and whether or not that individual can really connect with the story itself, because the.
Speaker A:There's such a prolific volume of stuff coming at you any day, and I can't even imagine.
Speaker A:I've talked to Mark about this, and he talks about the TBR list that's just stacked up in his office, and he.
Speaker A:I know he works weekends because we have chatted occasionally, but I'm.
Speaker A:It always feels daunting for us writers, how to break into the business.
Speaker A:And let's say someone's trying to break in today.
Speaker A:What do you think?
Speaker A:And this is going to sound a little simplistic, but I know I've now already picked up on the fact that you really good at drilling down what gives them the best shot.
Speaker A:Is it.
Speaker A:Is it an amazing story?
Speaker A:Is it the thing that we always hear about at writers conference, that killer platform?
Speaker A:Is it a little bit of both?
Speaker A:Is it something extra I'm not thinking about?
Speaker B:Well, I think it's a little bit of both.
Speaker B:I think it's also important when a writer is seeking representation that they do their research and make sure the agent or agents that they're submitting to are the right agents for the kind of book that they're writing.
Speaker B:What we look for, it's very instinctual.
Speaker B:When we look at something and it's very raw and we make a decision to take it on, we do it because of our experience of what we know, what works in the marketplace of the written word.
Speaker B:On the page, I use the word page, but of course, everything is so much electronic.
Speaker B:But I really look at it from that standpoint because as you use the word drill down, you really have to do that to make a determination if something is saleable.
Speaker B:And oftentimes agents have to do a lot of editorial work on books before it becomes saleable.
Speaker B:You know, especially in the literary field, you know, we have agents like Alan Levine who represent Pulitzer Prize winning authors like Marilyn Robinson, who wrote Gilead, you know, and you know, she represented for many years, Russell Banks.
Speaker B:All these authors love the fact that their edit agents can edit books for them, can help them strengthen the book before it goes out.
Speaker B:So a book is so, so raw oftentimes that if you don't do that work on the manuscript, you're just not going to sell it.
Speaker B:Now oftentimes there's something about the book that's magical.
Speaker B:When I took on Tom Clancy and represented the majority of his work, I talked about Red Star, rather Hunt for October with publishers in New York.
Speaker B:And they all told me it was too technical.
Speaker B:Too technical.
Speaker B:That was their answer.
Speaker B:And a paperback house under the Putnam Group, a military imprint, bought the book for $50,000 and they ended up selling 6 million copies.
Speaker B:So part of it is that you gotta know the buyers, you gotta know who is going to take risks, who is interested in what you're representing.
Speaker B:So it's all these different components, David, that go into the process.
Speaker A:You bring up an exceptional point.
Speaker A:I was recently talking to Emily Bessler about a similar thing and she referenced.
Speaker A:We were talking about how important is getting an agent.
Speaker A:I mean, there's a lot of success, Robert, I don't need to tell you, in self publishing for the people who do it right, or a particular genre.
Speaker A:And we're talking about how important.
Speaker A:And she goes, it is more important than you can ever imagine.
Speaker A:It's not just a matter about, you know, being able to, you know, do the deals and all that cool stuff and take their percentage and so forth.
Speaker A:She goes, it is this magic.
Speaker A:The editor or the agent knows the editors, the publishers, and all the little different pieces of the machinery that make that will bring your book to best success.
Speaker A:And when I.
Speaker A:And she really drew down with a great anecdote about Vince Flynn about how the way he started and.
Speaker A:And he was in the hands of the wrong person and he couldn't get arrested, all of a sudden it got somehow to her and the rest is history.
Speaker A:So what you're saying is mirroring so many things that we often hear Little bits and pieces about.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I'm.
Speaker B:A lot of work.
Speaker B:A lot of work goes into.
Speaker B:Oftentimes a manuscript before it even gets into the hands of an editor for the editor to do their job, which.
Speaker A:Is an enormous part of the.
Speaker A:I think an editor, I'm speaking as.
Speaker A:I'm a specialist and so don't take it that way.
Speaker A:But I think it's almost as important as the story itself because they can handcraft and move and finesse is the word, the meat of the story to make it its best possible.
Speaker B:And also the characters they know, the consumer, the book reader, and what people enjoy.
Speaker B:For instance, when my mentor's friend sold a book called the Godfather, that book was rejected all over New York by publishers.
Speaker B:David.
Speaker B:Because publishers said at that time, why would anyone buy a book where the lead character is a mafia guy and so unsympathetic as a result?
Speaker B:So the agent called a friend of his after the book had been rejected all over New York and said, look, do me a favor, please publish this book.
Speaker B:The manuscript pages had coffee stains on them, had been through so many hands, so many people, and the publisher, who was a great friend of the agent, said, okay, I'll do that.
Speaker B:And the rest is history.
Speaker A:How many did it sell into?
Speaker B:Tens of millions.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Tens of millions.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker A:And now there's a quintessential example not to take too much time on it.
Speaker A:There's a great example of someone who had the tenacity to stick with it and the people around him to have the vision to pursue it.
Speaker A:But the magic of when you have a good story, well told.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And, you know, of course the other aspect of it is that, you know, you have to find an agent who's going to be dogged.
Speaker B:You know, it can take.
Speaker B:Sometimes it's a quick group of publishers looking at it and someone buying it.
Speaker B:Sometimes it takes six months, a year, two years.
Speaker B:But, you know, if you believe in the author that you're representing and you know what an agent often can do is dig down deep into the industry and find the right person ultimately to publish the book.
Speaker A:There is a note I made to myself as you were talking, because it's something that pops up so many times in my world.
Speaker A:I am not the biggest fan of rules.
Speaker A:I mean, I understand there are rules when you're trying to craft a story, but like rules in the big picture.
Speaker A:Sometimes I think rules are made by people who just want to have control and they may not have the smarts to back it up.
Speaker A:So I've always Part of it's probably because I'm a PK preacher's kid and I'm always, you know.
Speaker B:Or they're working for organizations that set the rules that they have to live within.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:So sometimes I listen to the formula and the rules and I go, yeah, we'll figure it out along the way.
Speaker A:Because you've just told us now about three solid stories where somebody decided to play, not necessarily with the rules, a little more against the rules than they won.
Speaker A:So in interest of being expeditious, you started off the conversation with something that was really simmering on the back of my noggin.
Speaker A:And that was we were talking about international sales and how Triton has done so well overseas.
Speaker A:I want to know, and you touched on it, what's happening in international publishing that might actually surprise my listener?
Speaker A:And is there anything unexpected, like unexpected markets that are heating up?
Speaker B:Well, I think first of all, the culture in foreign markets is different than the culture in American markets.
Speaker B:American markets publishing is dominated by the business side.
Speaker B:And no matter how much an editor loves a book, if the business people behind the scenes, the marketing people, the salespeople, the art people, all the people that sit on the editorial board, acquisition board, if they're not on board, the editor's not going to be able to buy the book.
Speaker B:Nine times out of 10 in Europe and in other countries around the world, it's really more author centric.
Speaker B:And so those publishing houses revolve around what the great editors in these countries want to acquire.
Speaker B:They have to get behind it.
Speaker B:They can share their opinion, but they're not going to be the driving force behind it.
Speaker B:So it's a different kind of mindset about authors and publishing, storytelling, the material.
Speaker B:And so again, when you go to the fairs and you meet with all these buyers and we go To Germany with four agents, we have about 350 meetings set up over a five day period at the fair where we pitch our author's books.
Speaker B:You have to understand as an American agent how to talk to them, how to get their interest.
Speaker B:For instance, I say to my agents, if you're going to talk about a book, and an editor from a German publisher indicates that they're kind of lukewarm to it, don't keep pitching it, stop, get off that book and get on to the next book.
Speaker B:They're very polite.
Speaker B:That's their way of showing that they're not interested.
Speaker B:But sometimes American agents who are very enthusiastic and they want to continue pushing and continue on with that editor, and that editor has more meetings you have more meetings.
Speaker B:So there are techniques and understandings that you have to develop as an agent dealing in international markets.
Speaker B:But most importantly is they look at books differently than we do.
Speaker B:They have a much more literary, artistic outlook, even in commercial fiction, than the way that we do.
Speaker B:We have, you know, I'm not saying we don't have that, but they approach it on a different basis, you know, in countries like Eastern Europe and Russia, you know, when we think of, you know, entertaining the kids, we take them to the park, we take them to the movies, they take them to museums.
Speaker B:That's their idea of a day out with the family.
Speaker B:So, again, it's just a different mindset that you have to understand in order to work, you know, with them in their markets.
Speaker A:Such good insights.
Speaker A:Now, I know, you know, Trident, you've built one of the biggest agencies in the world.
Speaker A:What's your secret to building the team that you have, keeping them sharp in an industry that seems to always be shifting?
Speaker A:I know you.
Speaker A:You've been at it a while, so I want to know that secret sauce.
Speaker B:ROBERT Well, I think it's, again, a number of things, David.
Speaker B:One is, is that pick thoroughbreds when you're promoting people or bringing people in, like Don Fair is a thoroughbred in nonfiction.
Speaker B:There probably isn't anyone as good as Don Fehr in nonfiction in the industry.
Speaker B:He used to be the publisher, you know, of Smithsonian.
Speaker B:He was a senior editor at Viking and the other.
Speaker B:So when I pick a thoroughbred, I don't like to, you know, ride them, put my foot on their neck.
Speaker B:I I want them to run the race and win the race.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:Those are the kinds of people I like to work with.
Speaker B:Secondly, of course, is to lead by example.
Speaker B:So I'm out in front with the troops.
Speaker B:I'm not, you know, sitting in the background, you know.
Speaker B:You know, just watching commissions come into the company.
Speaker B:I like to lead from the front.
Speaker B:I like to, you know, help them in that leadership and also guide them and give them support in what they're doing and be, you know, very active in their business lives.
Speaker A:You just said something.
Speaker A:My first career, Robert, was in Radio.
Speaker A:I did 25 years on major market morning shows, New York, LA, Chicago, so forth.
Speaker A:And I learned that the bosses that I were the best, the ones that I really admired, were the ones.
Speaker A:And you use the exact phrase I said you.
Speaker A:I would say to my boss, you've hired a thoroughbred.
Speaker A:This sounds egotistical.
Speaker A:I don't mean it that way.
Speaker A:You've hired a thoroughbred who has spent his entire young years trying to get to this point.
Speaker A:So let me run, because if you're just going to hold that rein, I'm not going to get anywhere.
Speaker A:So I've always found that the leaders that are really.
Speaker A:That really make a difference are the ones that find the thoroughbreds.
Speaker A:Let them run.
Speaker A:And number two is, are willing to get in that race in the dirt, roll up their sleeves with them, because the guys who sit in the big ivory towers, it just doesn't work.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:And as you point out, it's also creating opportunity for people as a leader of a company so that they can sign more clients.
Speaker B:They have resources that other agencies don't have.
Speaker B:You know, a lot of agencies, and I'm, you know, speaking in general, have, you know, everyone's very competitive.
Speaker B:Oftentimes they don't like each other.
Speaker B:There was one major agency where the two heads of the literary department didn't speak for 20 years to each other.
Speaker B:So I'm just the reverse of that.
Speaker B:I believe in communication.
Speaker B:I also have a very strong ethic and ethos about treating people with respect and kindness.
Speaker B:And a lot of the people that we have at Trident came up through the ranks.
Speaker B:We didn't go out and have to hire them.
Speaker B:We developed them ourselves.
Speaker B:Now, the downside of that is, of course, is that then other agencies come and try to pick them off.
Speaker B:You put a big investment in them, you put a lot of time and energy into them, but nonetheless, you want to have an environment that encourages people to make the kind of commitment in life that you need to do to become a literary agent.
Speaker A:I'm not going to take the time to go find it because I have run out of time.
Speaker A:But there is a listener who wrote in and mentioned you specifically when your son was on the show.
Speaker A:And they said something to the effect of they had heard enough about your reputation and followed your career enough and talked to people around you that they said the reason they like, liked the show at the time, that had Mark Gottlieb, that also was led by his father, that they so respected the whole Trident mission, that that's what gave them such great respect.
Speaker A:And I thought, now that's really interesting.
Speaker A:And this.
Speaker A:This guy went on for quite some bit, and he's just an average listener because I followed up with him.
Speaker A:But that has got to make you feel good and is a great reflection of the way you lead your team.
Speaker B:And it's also, if I may say so, David, it is, you know, a.
Speaker B:Throughout the entire agency, it's the kind of feeling that I Like to create with people and for people to feel secure, people to feel that they have, that I'm on their side, my door is always open.
Speaker B:I love having conversations with them about, you know, anything they want to talk about.
Speaker B:But at the end of the day, it's also all about the author.
Speaker B:If you're not really an author centric company, you know, either you're chasing commissions or you're, you know, trying to, you know, just be a deal maker, you know, I mean, there are companies that do that.
Speaker B:But, you know, our mission, our focus has always been.
Speaker B:My focus has always been as an advocate.
Speaker B:Not just as an agent and a career manager, but an advocate for authors.
Speaker B:The reason I take credit for this, the reason is a 25% royalty in ebooks today is because of me.
Speaker B:I went to war.
Speaker B:I went to war with random house over 30 years ago.
Speaker B:They wanted to do an entirely different kind of construct for ebook royalties.
Speaker B:And with the, you know, weight of Trident behind me, not Trident, sorry, with William Morris Agency behind me, with my mentor Owen Laster, we fought off an attempt to really rip off authors on ebooks.
Speaker B:And we didn't have to do that.
Speaker B:That way we could have just thought about it for ourselves.
Speaker B:But I treated it as an industry wide discussion that had to take place for the sake of authors and their income.
Speaker A:Man, I could sit here and talk to you forever.
Speaker A:And I told Mark this one day, I'm like, what I want to do is I want to get up to New York and sit down in Robert's big office in the corner there with a view, I'm assuming, and have the three of us just crack open the microphones and chat away.
Speaker A:Because I'm just, I love conversation.
Speaker A:You're a great conversation with.
Speaker A:You have so much insights.
Speaker A:I told Mark, I'm like, I want.
Speaker A:We've been talking about going to London Book Fair together for, for years now.
Speaker A:And I said, okay, I wrote him this year.
Speaker A:And I'm like, I apologize, I couldn't make it this year.
Speaker A:Let's do it next year.
Speaker A:So you would love it.
Speaker B:You would love.
Speaker A:All that is to say, I would love to spend some more time.
Speaker A:I do want to close with this one question.
Speaker A:When I have authors on the show, I say, what's your best writing adv?
Speaker A:So I had to come up with one for you that I use sporadically.
Speaker A:And if you could go back and give your younger self that, you know, that handsome, intelligent, debonair young man a bit of self advice just as you were getting started in the business what would you say to him?
Speaker B:Well, I would say that have patience, work hard and have patience, work at your craft.
Speaker B:Now I'm talking about an agent versus the craft of an author.
Speaker B:But it is a craft.
Speaker B:Work at your craft, develop your craft, make it extraordinary.
Speaker B:Don't worry about, I'm doing this for a year.
Speaker B:I've been doing this for three years.
Speaker B:I've been doing this for five years.
Speaker B:Because in success it will all happen for you, but the success only comes from the effort that you put into it.
Speaker A:You know, it's so funny, I hear people talk about, well, I got writer's block today.
Speaker A:I think I'm going to go fishing or something.
Speaker A:I'm like, you know, I think back to teachers when they were having to go into work.
Speaker A:I never heard teacher's block or if a policeman was being called in to do the third shift, he didn't have.
Speaker A:I have policeman's block.
Speaker A:So my point is you just keep working because you work through it, you push through it.
Speaker B:I'll tell you a quick anecdote.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I was Owen Lasseter's assistant for four years.
Speaker B:In today's world, assistants want to be agents in six months.
Speaker B:I was his assistant for four years.
Speaker B:We used to have a listening device on phones in the agent's offices that we would put up to our ear when the agent was on the phone with the client or a buyer so that we could learn.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So It's Friday night, 8 o' clock at night, I'm on the listening device and Owen Laster's hangs up the phone at 8 o' clock at night on Friday night.
Speaker B:He turns to me and he said to me, why are you still here?
Speaker B:And the answer was, because you're here.
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:All right, well, first of all, we've run out of time.
Speaker A:Is there anything because you so wanted to be on the show and I'm so grateful for your time, is there anything I didn't cover that you'd love my audience to know that is on the top of your head?
Speaker B:Well, as I said, I think that the most important thing.
Speaker B:I believe that a lot of your audience are writers.
Speaker B:And I think the most important thing is to work with people who not only love literature and writing, but also are committed to authors careers.
Speaker A:Yeah, I like that.
Speaker A:And I'm going to sound real, maybe soft and old fashioned, but I also, I don't know about you, Robert, but I like to work with people that I like.
Speaker A:Now.
Speaker A:Sure, we gotta find some cutthroat sharks out there every once in a while to do some of the heavy lifting.
Speaker A:But all in all, having just come through prostate cancer, I've realized that life is short and you got to move fast and grab all you can.
Speaker A:So there's a part of me says, man, if I've only got this much time, I want to do it with people that I really like being around.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:But the more successful your Asian is for you, the more you're gonna like them.
Speaker A:So well put.
Speaker A:So well put.
Speaker A:Always leave the room laughing.
Speaker A:Well, Robert Gottlieb, thank you so much for the gift of your time.
Speaker A:This has been a dandy.
Speaker B:My pleasure.
Speaker B:My pleasure.
Speaker B:And I wish you all the best with your recovery and I've heard great things about your show and it's been a real pleasure talking to you.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you, man.
Speaker A:I don't know about you, but I learned a lot.
Speaker A:What a great guy.
Speaker A:Just like your son.
Speaker A:That Gottlieb family, good people.
Speaker A:Well, folks, that that wraps now.
Speaker A:The month of June, it went by like that.
Speaker A:How crazy.
Speaker A:We're now in our fourth season.
Speaker A:Isn't that great?
Speaker A:Four years doing this, man, that is an accomplishment I am so incredible, incredibly proud of.
Speaker A:And it's thanks to you that I got there.
Speaker A:Thanks to you for being there, listening, for telling your friends about us, for writing the emails.
Speaker A:Gotten some nice, nice emails lately subscribing to the channel, supporting me financially or just by great words of accolades on social media, supporting the substack page, so forth.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for that.
Speaker A:And by the way, just a quick reminder, if you'd like to reach out to us, the thrillerzonemail.com if you'd like to be on the show, go to the thrillerzone.com register sign up.
Speaker A:We'll see what we can make happen.
Speaker A:Well, that wraps June, what's coming in July.
Speaker A:I guess you'll have to stay tuned.
Speaker A:I'm Dave Temple.
Speaker A:I'll see you next time for another edition of of the Thriller Zone.
