Wes Browne's Success Recipe: Noir Crime, Craft Beer and Compelling Characters

Dave Temple: 00:00:12

Hey there, it's your buddy, Dave Temple here on the Thriller Zone. And on today's 226 episode, I get to finally welcome Wes Brown, author of they All Fall the Same. Let's say hi to Wes Brown.

Wes Browne: 00:00:24

I'm thrilled to be on the Thriller Zone.

Dave Temple: 00:00:27

You know, last time I saw you was Bowshercon, San Diego.

Wes Browne: 00:00:32

Yep.

Dave Temple: 00:00:33

But one. But I think that's the first time I'd actually gone up and said hello. You were. You were so delightful. You were so nice. And I just, I.

I remember you stick out of my. There's a couple guys that stick out in my mind. I just like. Huh. That dude was very nice. I just appreciate that.

Wes Browne: 00:00:48

I do my best.

Dave Temple: 00:00:50

And here's something I just learned and I did not know. For crying out loud. How did I not know this? Let me read this. Where did I put it?

Practice law as a criminal defense attorney, prosecutor and public defender in Appalachia for over 24 years. Yeah. Wow. That's. You're a smart dude. Wow.

Wes Browne: 00:01:10

I try. Yeah. I just. In the last couple years, closed. I had a solo law practice. My main focus was criminal defense.

I'd been a prosecutor briefly right out of law school. Went out to open my own place. Did that for 20 some years.

And you know, the other thing in my bio is we have restaurants with mostly pizza restaurants, and so that's a big deal. And it just got to be where the time was very difficult. The practice changed a lot after the pandemic.

I also did car accidents, that sort of thing, which, you know, every lawyer loves. A good car accident, sure. But. But that got to be where. If you weren't on tv, if you didn't have billboards, that was a difficult market.

So I sort of backed out of that. Not backed out of it, but I wasn't as strongly in that. And then I just got so busy doing every other thing I did.

I'm actually quarter time now for the Madison County Attorney's office here in Richmond Kentuck.

Dave Temple: 00:02:08

Quarter time is so one fourth of the time that you were ordinarily spending. Is what you're thinking saying yes.

Wes Browne: 00:02:14

Yeah.

Dave Temple: 00:02:14

Okay.

Wes Browne: 00:02:15

And then that. That allows me because I run essentially, we've got five going on six pizza shops. We have a burger restaurant, we have a brewery tap room.

And then we've got rental properties. And I do all that stuff too. And then I do the books as well.

Dave Temple: 00:02:31

So no wonder you've only put out. You've two books that I know of. Right. Yeah. Hustle Hillbilly.

Wes Browne: 00:02:39

Hustle Hillbilly Hustle. Wait.

Dave Temple: 00:02:42

They all follow the sun. Yeah. Stick it up there, Hillbilly Hustle.

Wes Browne: 00:02:46

Wait, wait. Here's one that you may not know.

Dave Temple: 00:02:49

Okay. Bring it.

Wes Browne: 00:02:54

That's the beer.

Dave Temple: 00:02:55

Oh, get out of here. Hillbilly Hustle is. What kind is that? Ipa. What is it?

Wes Browne: 00:02:59

No, it's. It's a BlackBerry lemon lager brewed by Country Boy Brewing. It's available in eight states in Kroger grocery stores.

,: 2020

Some of my best friends are the brewers and the guys at Country Boy. We did events and restaurants and breweries when Hilly Hustle came out, and so they brewed this beer just for those events. They brewed a small batch.

The pandemic hits, everything shuts down. They sell the Hillbilly Hustle out of their tap room, and there's demand for it.

So they brew it again, and they brew it again, and they brew it again. And after they started canning it about two years ago, but they sold it locally. And the Kroger stores said, hey, we'd like a new beer.

Something interesting, something different, something with mass appeal. And they said, you know, we have this beer called Hillbilly Hustle, and it sells like crazy in our market. And Kroger store said, we want it.

It's in eight states now. But the thing about the book Hillbilly Hustle, let's reference back to that, is our first pizza shop. We're called Apollo Pizza in Richmond, Kentucky.

Before we owned it. Apollo Pizza was also a really good place to buy pot.

Dave Temple: 00:04:20

Oh, yeah.

Wes Browne: 00:04:22

So Hillbilly Hustle, my first published novel, I wrote a bunch of novels before I got published. My first published novel was based on our pizza shop, before we owned it, when they sold pot.

It's about a guy in Richmond, Kentucky, who has a pizza shop where they sell pot. And what goes wrong from there? It's been a weird way that it's sort of morphed into other things.

Dave Temple: 00:04:47

Well, let me just say for the record, in case anyone hadn't put this together, so you got craft beer, pizza and pot. That's a trifecta. It doesn't get any better than that, does it?

Wes Browne: 00:05:01

At one time, so. So the original Apollo Pizza was located next door to my law office. There was a building in between that we also owned, and we.

Dave Temple: 00:05:12

Laundromat?

Wes Browne: 00:05:13

No, we rented it to the local DUI school. So we absolutely had a one stop Shop there for a while of the bar, the criminal defense office, and then the. The DUI school.

We did not own the DUI school.

Dave Temple: 00:05:32

Well, I can see something in your future.

You're going to buy a DUI school and then you're going to open up a laundromat and you're going to call it Hillbilly Hustle Suds and Buds and, and be able to get it all done in one little shopping mart. I love that. What an entrepreneur you are.

Wes Browne: 00:05:49

Hey, small town America, man. You got to try it all. Well, and that. That's sort of what Burl Spoon is. And they all fall the same. That's kind of the basis of all this.

Dave Temple: 00:06:00

Well, you jumped to me. I wanted to do a couple things for those folks who are brand new to West Brown and I am too, by the way.

I will admit right away, they all fall the same as the one I've gotten turned on to.

Crooked Lane Books put this thing out and there's a couple of folks who have said some things that I really like and I'm going to share some of those.

Your buddy SA Cosby says, a dark, gritty slice of rural noir that goes down smooth like a hell of a kick through Kentucky hills where justice, revenge and regret are uneasy allies. Okay, that's pretty. That's written as beautifully as he writes his books.

Then our mutual buddy Eli Craner says, and he uses a phrase I say all the time, as you've heard on the show, he can flat out write, which is what I'm always saying. Southern fried slice of Kentucky noir penned by a man who not only knows the territory but also has the chops to serve it to you straight.

But perhaps my favorite. And when you held up Hillbilly Hustle, I saw where it came from. This is my favorite one. I love this.

Benjamin Percy says Brown writes like a smart talking card shuffling, bullet dodging, bourbon soaked love child of Ron Rash, Elmore Leonard and the Coen brothers. Mic Draw, I'll take it. That teased me up to Burl Spoon. Burl Spoon was fun to follow.

A dark, complicated, bitter, crusty, vengeful, entrepreneurial little mofo. Tell us about Burl and I want to know about where he came from in your head. And I love that little Chelsea. Goodness gracious.

Wes Browne: 00:07:33

Burl reminds me of so many people I know in Kentucky. And honestly, he's a combination of a lot of people I know in Kentucky. Some criminals, some not so criminal people.

I mean, one of the people in Burl Spoon is my, my father in law who's, who's passed on. But my father in law was kind of a, he was a great guy, but he could be kind of hard on you.

But he was a very loving guy and that, and in particular he loved his grandchildren. So I used some of that in Burl's relationship with his granddaughter Chelsea. Burl's.

Burl has the world, you know, by the tail in his little fiefdom in Jackson County, Kentucky. The one problem he has is his family is somewhat falling apart a little bit.

And to be kind, everything's going wrong at once and it's all related to his family and they're all kind of fed up with him. He thinks he's a great dad and a great father and they all would probably say you're not.

He's not going to take that for an answer because he thinks he is. His granddaughter is the one person who's young enough that she doesn't see sort of how flawed he really is.

And you know, if you think about what the inciting incident in the book is though, it's about his daughter Dede. And although he's having problems with Dedi, he still loves her, you know, beyond measure.

And that's what is the catalyst for the action in this book and puts him at odds with another crime family in Kentucky, the Begley's of the Begley sod farm empire. And I didn't make this up and my press didn't make it up. Someone said this in the lead up to this.

They said this book is like the Sopranos meets the Hatfields and McCoys. I wish I was smart enough to think of that because maybe we would have run with it. But I mention it a lot now because that's been the computer.

Dave Temple: 00:09:30

Well, it's so funny that you should say that because the, the second you were talking about the alternating factions, I thought of Hatfill and McCoys.

And yet when you think mafia and family and the fact that family, the, the mafia family tends to have this brusque exterior, but a real soft interior. I thought of the Sopranos. So then you said that. I'm like, oh my God, did he just read my mind? But that is brilliant.

And you should use that from now because that's perfect.

Wes Browne: 00:10:02

I think we're all sort of, our work is the product of our influences. And I can't say that I didn't really enjoy the Sopranos shows like Ozark, Peaky Blinders. And I was a criminal defense attorney for a very long time.

And one of the things I talk about when you deal with a character like Burl Spoon is he's a bad guy. Right. There's no debating he's a bad guy. But you can still have empathy for someone like him. You can still find humanity in him.

Well, what was my job for 24, 25 years? It was to. Sometimes you can get people out of what they've done.

But very often, being a criminal defense attorney is dealing with the consequences of what they've done because they've done, because the person's caught.

Dave Temple: 00:10:50

Yeah.

Wes Browne: 00:10:50

So I am. My job is to bring that same thing out of Burl Spoon to the reader.

Even though you may not like everything he does and you may understand he's a bad guy, why should you love him? Why should you root for him? Why should you care about him? And that's the same thing I did as an attorney. I would look at my.

My clients and say, okay, what they do wrong and how can I redeem them? And how can I make a jury, a judge, a prosecutor, have some level of empathy for them and maybe go a little easier on them?

And, you know, I think those marry together.

Dave Temple: 00:11:28

Well, you. You really did spend two and a half decades in the absolute best place for material as a writer.

You know, we're always talking on the show because I know you're a fan of the show. We're always talking about where the ideas come from, where the influences come from. What do we like, what do we dislike, what. What are we attracted?

It always comes down to the material around us. And I don't know if you caught David Baldacci last week, but he would. You know, we had. We poked a little fun at that question.

He goes, well, Dave, you know, basically my ideas come from waking up in the morning and going out and enjoying the day.

And I'm like, yeah, anybody who just puts their feet on the floor and proceeds with caution should run into a half a dozen or more ideas in any given day, if you're paying attention. So it always feeds to that.

And guys like you, and he was an attorney, too, you have such a wealth of information, especially as it comes to the minutia of detail and human beings, both good, bad, and indifferent, which you peppered throughout this book rather handsomely.

Wes Browne: 00:12:36

Thank you. Writing Kentucky in that respect, you don't have to exaggerate what happens here. Something wild happens here every day. I mean, it's not Florida.

It makes sense. You can understand why people do what they do.

You know, Hyacinth's got a great thing going, because in Florida, People do crazy stuff every day and it doesn't even have to have any reason behind it. They just do it. I watched a video the other day of a guy carrying an alligator through a liquor store and he was just laughing.

He got drunk and he took an alligator into a liquor store and he got charged for it. But he seemed to relish the attention anyway. In Kentucky things happen, wild things happen. But there's going to be a reason for him.

There's going to be some logic behind him. But I don't base anything directly on a case I've been involved in or actual facts.

Now I say that Hillbilly Hustle, the, the pot dealing pizza shop, that kernel of it is real. The rest of it is all fiction. I fictionalized the entire thing. None of that really hues to how that went except one thing.

One other thing is if you wanted a dime bag at Apollo Pizza back in the day, which in Hillbilly Hustle is called Porthos Pizza, you would order the spinach special.

Dave Temple: 00:13:55

Okay.

Wes Browne: 00:13:56

And if you ordered the spinach special on the side, they'd bring you a dime bag with your pizza. That's true.

Dave Temple: 00:14:04

You know what, as I was listening to you talk about these side hustles, I thought it's so interesting that you have two businesses.

And I, the reason I say this, it shows the entrepreneur in you is my mother in law ran these businesses and she said, we were talking one night over dinner, I said, mama, what, what's the best business if you're going to have a restaurant? She goes, one of two things, breakfast or pizza. And how about beverages? She goes, craft brewery. Your margins are the best in those three areas.

Not the fancy dinners and not the fancy cocktails necessarily.

Wes Browne: 00:14:46

The margins in pizza are favorable.

Dave Temple: 00:14:49

Yeah, quite.

Wes Browne: 00:14:51

One of the best things are breadsticks. Oh, I bet we, our breadsticks are. We talk about our world famous breadsticks. Our breadsticks are amazing.

And whenever it comes time to give something away, we give those away. And people are, why do you give away the famous breadsticks? And it's because our, our cost basis in them is lower than the other stuff.

But pizza generally speaking is good. I will say costs have gone up and consumers willingness to pay that has gone down. So it's not maybe what it always was.

Yeah, I literally, if you want to know, if I write my memoir, it's probably going to be called like we're over cheesing because cheese is the expensive thing. And I spend, I lecture these guys more cheese isn't better. The Right amount of cheese is better.

You don't judge a chef by how much of something they give you. You judge them by getting the proper proportions of food. Our cooks don't get that. A lot of college kids and young guys, and they think more is.

So I just spend my life saying, you're over cheesing. You're over cheesing. You're over cheesing. I. I am our. I am our. I'm qc, man. I'm quality control.

I order a pizza from our locations every so often, and the most frequent response is, you're over cheesing. They over top. We do all, you know, pizza's. Pizza's not an exact science, let me put it that way. So we just try.

You got to get it within a certain margin. But I love the pizza business. I love pizza. I never expected to be in the pizza business, by the way. It was not. I did not get into it intentionally.

Dave Temple: 00:16:27

Oh, really?

Wes Browne: 00:16:29

ortunately, he passed away in: 2012

And it was right next door to my office, and. And I knew his family, and they sold us the building. And his former employees said, we'd like to keep it going.

And we said, we want Apollo to keep going. It's an institution in this town. And then they all just sort of dried up.

And after six months, my business partner came to me and said, do you think we could open it? I had worked in Pizza Hut. I'd worked at Buffalo Wild Wings. I'd worked at a country club. I'd done every job you could in a restaurant.

He really hadn't. So the question wasn't, do you think we can open it? It was, do you think you can open it?

Dave Temple: 00:17:21

Right, right, right.

Wes Browne: 00:17:22

We now are going on six locations, and it's 13 years later.

Dave Temple: 00:17:26

Wow. So, okay, I got it. I'm dying to know, what's your favorite pizza? What's your go to order? And then we'll move on to your books.

Wes Browne: 00:18:40

Okay. It's not very exciting. I eat ham and mushroom a lot. I love pepperoni, but it's not as healthy for you.

And I'm getting older, so I eat ham and mushroom. I have forever. My favorite style of pizza is Detroit style.

Dave Temple: 00:18:53

Oh, deep dish.

Wes Browne: 00:18:54

Yeah, deep dish. Sauce on top, kind of in rows. If you haven't had Detroit style, you gotta. You gotta try it. I grew up.

I grew up going to near my grandmother's house in Southfield, Michigan. Going to a pizza shop called Shields.

Dave Temple: 00:19:07

I know Shields. I used to live in Southfield when I had a morning show in Detroit.

Wes Browne: 00:19:11

You know, I think we talked about that a little bit about your con. Your history there. So she. Yep. So she. She. She lived near Shields. That was the place where, when you went to visit, that's where we'd get the pizza.

So for a while, Apollo had the eight mile, and it was our Detroit style. But again, depending on who cooked it, it was a. It was a more challenging pizza to cook.

Dave Temple: 00:19:33

Yeah.

Wes Browne: 00:19:34

Now we bring it in for special occasions.

Dave Temple: 00:19:36

One other thing, since you're talking about pizza, because I'm. I went from Detroit, which was deep dish. Then I went to Chicago, where I did a morning show, but their deep dish was like this thick. I mean, it was.

It was a buffet and a pie. And that still, to this day, I think is still their most popular. Not my number one favorite. I'm kind of the. I'm a fan of the super thin crispy.

But yeah, two. Two good cities. Well, now three that I know offer great pizza.

Wes Browne: 00:20:08

I like Chicago style deep dish. People say it's more like a casserole than a pizza.

Dave Temple: 00:20:12

It is.

Wes Browne: 00:20:13

And that's fine. You know, people love what they love. I. I enjoy it. I eat one on a trip and that's it. Yeah, you know, it's. It's pretty intense.

Dave Temple: 00:20:21

Yeah, it is. All right. See, I love stuff like this. This is great. And that hillbilly hustle. I'm gonna have to.

I am a craft beer fan, and I do live in the capital of craft beer, which Diego. Now, the funny thing is, is West Coast IPA and Hazy's, which I just learned recently, Hazy was an accident that turned into a trend.

Did you know that? Hazy was basically. They didn't clean it, clear it out efficiently, but. So it was kind of a lazy accident.

But then people said, oh, I really like that flavor. And then it became a trend, and the rest is history.

Wes Browne: 00:20:59

I don't know that part. I know the origins supposedly are in New England, and they were initially was called the New England style ipa.

The accident part, I hadn't read that, but I can believe it. I. I've. I've brewed a little bit and messed around with it, and it is, again, it is not an exact science. Much like pizza. You just don't know.

Dave Temple: 00:21:21

Well, Hollywood hustle. Hollywood hustle. Sorry, I'm thinking of hillbilly hustle. Hollywood hustle. That's. That's John Lenstrom. I'm thinking about, will you. Will you brew a.

They All Fall the Same. Now, that has a connotation. Connotation when you're drinking a beer. That's called they All Fall the Same.

Wes Browne: 00:21:42

We did.

Dave Temple: 00:21:44

Yeah.

Wes Browne: 00:21:45

It was completely different. I thought, let's brew another beer. But I didn't take it. You know, I just. I had fun with it. This time.

I really missed Ballast Point, which is from your. Your neck of the woods. We used to get Ballast Point. And I loved Pineapple sculping.

Dave Temple: 00:22:03

Oh, my God, dude. I got so wasted on pineapple culping one day. I. I haven't drunk it since then.

Wes Browne: 00:22:10

Well, that makes. That makes two of us. I loved pineapple sculping. It left our market.

Dave Temple: 00:22:16

Yeah.

Wes Browne: 00:22:17

And I was finishing up the final edits on they All Fall the Same. And it crossed my mind that we would do a beer and I didn't know what kind of beer to do. And I literally.

There is a pineapple decoration on Burl Spoon's door. The international sign of welcome. It's right side up, by the way. He's not a swinger. It's the old school version of the pineapple.

I put that on his door because one of the things is he's sort of. If you read the book, he leads sort of this gangster lifestyle. But his home life is very conventional with his wife.

They're living, you know, they've got a wraparound porch with rockers and out in the country. And look what appears to be this sort of idyllic home life. And then he's out breaking every lawn, you know, doing what he does.

But I did that to justify brewing a pineapple IPA for a book about Eastern and Appalachian Kentucky. So They All Fall the Same was a pineapple IPA brewed this time by Blue Stallion Brewing out of Lexington. Okay, Country Boy, I talked.

Our tap room that we have is in contract with Blue Stallion, believe it or not, because, you know, we do a lot of different things. And I talked to Country Boy because they were nice enough to brew the first beer.

And they said, you know, with your beer coming out in cans, maybe it doesn't make sense to have two of your beers at the same time hitting the market. So I talked to Blue Stallion. I said, do you want this one? And they said, okay. It so far has just been in kegs. It's not canned yet, but there were.

There were some runs of. They All Fall the Same ipa.

Dave Temple: 00:23:59

You know, what I have heard through the grapevine is this Chinese will. Will the Chinese tariffs affect aluminum.

And I was listening to a conversation with some guys doing craft brewing out of Asheville, North Carolina where I was working on a documentary about craft brewing back about 15 years ago. And they said that if that the tariffs could eventually mess up the aluminum trade because the cost of the aluminum would go so high.

And I'm like, stick it back in bottles, kids. I mean, hello.

I do want to add this one other thing that popped into my head and that is Willie Nelson has now come with a pot drink and they're pitching it as get the get the natural high without the hangover. And I'm wondering if that cannabis infused beverages will be the next thing that kind of supplants craft brewery thoughts.

Wes Browne: 00:24:58

If I had a craft brewery, I would be trying to get my toe into that, let me put it that way.

Dave Temple: 00:25:02

By the way, folks, if you want to pick up this book, which we're going to give a plug again at the end of this show, they all fall the same. You can pick it up at most bookstores, but you can also do it@@indiebound.org and you're one of the few guys out there that are.

That I have noticed, maybe that should be said that are supporting local independent bookstores by including that link on your website. And I dig that. So thank you for that.

Wes Browne: 00:25:27

Well, I'm a local businessman, so what would I be if I didn't support the people like us? You know, I don't, I don't. I won't name any of the big pizza chains, but I'd rather you come to Apollo Pizza.

And so the one thing that I've noted recently that I struggle with is Hillbilly Hustle isn't in as many indie stores and I have a hard time trying to figure out where to tell people to go to buy Hillbilly Hustle. Although they have signed copies at a place called Two Dandelions Bookshop in Brighton, Michigan, because I just signed there. But it does.

The further you get from publication if you're not a household name.

Dave Temple: 00:26:07

Yeah.

Wes Browne: 00:26:08

And Hillbilly Hustle was with West Virginia University Press, so it didn't necessarily get the same saturation. So the further I got from the publication, the harder time I had telling people where to find it because it wasn't in stock.

They all fall the same is stocked pretty well at brick and mortar stores right now. So it's a little easier for me to point out places people can go.

Dave Temple: 00:26:31

There's something I want to throw at you. I had not planned on this, so I'm kind of surprising you, but pinged across my desktop recently a company called Books Buy. It's called Books Buy.

Evidently you can create your own personal bookstore and sell your books directly to your readers. What they do is they keep a hundred percent, you keep 100% of your royalties. Daily payouts to your bank account.

You see the names and emails of customers. But basically I think it's a membership thing. So I pay a certain amount of money to have this website.

That's how they make their money and they don't take a percentage of the books. And I was curious if you being an indie guy, even with Crooked Lanes had heard anything about this and if you had any thoughts about it.

Wes Browne: 00:27:17

It's interesting. I haven't heard of it. Now there was. I went to Left Coast Crime and there's a. There's a shop called Author Author.

And I've been trying, I've looked at maybe doing business with them. They'll sell you your books at a very small markup above wholesale.

Dave Temple: 00:27:35

Okay.

Wes Browne: 00:27:35

And that's for. Basically for hand selling. This idea that you could sell through their website I hadn't heard of.

I have an affiliate link on bookshop.org but I don't like pushing people to it because again, for the same reason I'm not a bookseller, I kind of want the booksellers to get those sales.

Dave Temple: 00:27:53

Yeah.

Wes Browne: 00:27:54

There's a bookstore that I love in Hazard, Kentucky. It's called the Red Spotted Newt R E A D run by an. She's also an author named Mandy Scheffel. She actually sells me my books just above her cost.

And that's how when I hand sell, I get my sales to all pass through as retail sales. If I buy from. If I buy from the publisher direct, they don't count against my numbers and they don't count as retail sales.

By purchasing through a bookshop, through a friend, I pay her a little bit, but not nearly the retail. And then when I go out to the events and I'm hand selling, all authors do that from time to time.

You don't always know if you're going to have a bookseller. I buy my hand sell copies that way and she gets free shipping because my orders boost her up to where she has enough numbers.

So there's a lot of ways to skin this. Okay, I like what. I like what you described those really interesting. I'll look into it.

But again, gives me a little bit of pause because again, I do try to send people the local bookstores.

You know, it has its problems Too, though people look at your Amazon numbers a lot and if you're not pushing people to Amazon, my Amazon numbers are suppressed some because of that. And then, you know, you may not have as many reviews because of those things and those metrics. Everyone talks about them.

I don't know what they mean in the end. And I just try to. I just try to follow the golden rule. Do unto others.

Dave Temple: 00:29:27

Exactly.

Wes Browne: 00:29:28

Do onto bookstores as I would have done under my pizza shop.

Dave Temple: 00:29:33

That should be a T shirt. Well, you know, it's such a tough. It's a tough business. And I was on with Mark Gottlieb who is VP and agent at Trident Media Group.

And he's become a good friend and just a smart dude and kind and just always willing to take time. And with busy guys living in the Big Apple, that isn't always the case.

And you know, it's just so interesting to hear his take on the publishing business. So when you get a chance, go back and listen to that one. I think you would pick up a few gems.

Wes Browne: 00:30:03

Got le?

Dave Temple: 00:30:05

Yeah, Mark got le. I think just a couple of weeks back. I have one more question and then I want to do a little game of rapid fire questions.

I used to do this back in the day and I just kind of dropped off. But you're the kind of guy that can, I can play this with and I think we'd have some fun with it.

But the follow up question is, is my grandmother, Nana used to say, do you ever get a Hanran?

And so my question is, do you ever get a hankering to write commercial fiction or go off some completely different tangent rather than kind of the noir groove that you've settled into?

Wes Browne: 00:30:41

My next book is much more commercial than my last two. I finished a book in October of 23 and I've had to sort of sit on it until this one came out due to my contract.

My next book is called 29 Palms Highway. It's essentially initially I called it my Elmore Leonard pivot.

I don't read as much Elmore Leonard as I used to, but I used to love to read Elmore Leonard. It was really big. I have a book signed to me that says good luck with your novel from Elmore Leonard. From when? 20 years before I published.

I was writing novels then and he signed a book to me that said good luck. He wrote wherever he wanted. He just did a lot of research. And you know what? It actually ties into Bouchercon, San Diego.

I wrote a short story for the anthology there, Killing Time in San Diego, and It was called 29 palms. And me being me. The deadline to submit had passed and I thought, oh, shoot, I wanted to be in that anthology. And they extended it and I had 48 hours.

So I wrote this story, 29 palms, and they wanted things to be set in San Diego, but they said California's okay. I had not too many years before flown into Las Vegas with my family and drove to Palm Desert and stayed there.

I became fascinated with a place called Prim, Nevada, where it's sort of a dying small casino town right on the line. And then we stopped for ice cream in 29 palms. And I famously, if we're on a family trip and I see a soft serve cone on a sign, we're stopping.

Dave Temple: 00:32:26

Yeah.

Wes Browne: 00:32:27

And there's a place in 29 Palm called Foster's Freeze. And I was fascinated by it. We stood there and ate ice cream. And then I looked into it and I didn't think much about it again.

We went on our trip, went back, and when it came time to brush out this story, I wound up writing a story set in Prim, Nevada, and 29 palms. It's about a Michigan state police trainee who's a sharpshooter who quits after the death of his sister.

He gets disillusioned and he moves out to Las Vegas and joins a high end theft ring. My agent was really excited when I sent it to her because she's like, oh, you got out of the noir groove.

So I had so much fun writing that short story that I made in a novel. And it's. It's sort of a hyacinth in the desert sort of a vibe.

Dave Temple: 00:33:15

Well, and the reason I asked that is because I have followed you guys and I say, you guys, there's a small collective of you noir guys. Eli SA Cosby. Oh, gosh, what is her name? I had her on the show. I love her. Blonde.

Wes Browne: 00:33:34

Oh, Ashley Irwin.

Dave Temple: 00:33:35

No, not her. Now, she's a hoot and a half, but this.

Wes Browne: 00:33:38

Are you thinking of Kelly J. Ford?

Dave Temple: 00:33:40

Thank you.

Wes Browne: 00:33:41

She's Arkansas.

Dave Temple: 00:33:43

Okay. Okay, gotcha.

Wes Browne: 00:33:44

Yeah.

Dave Temple: 00:33:45

Love her.

Wes Browne: 00:33:45

Love her.

Dave Temple: 00:33:46

God, she's just. She is. When she walks in the room, it is the room. Anyway, reason I asked that question, I.

I digress is that I wonder how many of you cats want to stay in that groove or if you hanker to venture out. And so the fact that you're already doing that, I love that. I want you to come back and talk about him.

Wes Browne: 00:34:12

I'd love to.

Dave Temple: 00:34:13

All right, let's do this little fun Little game called rapid fire. Questions in favorite bourbon.

Wes Browne: 00:34:21

Woodford Reserve is kind of my go to. Because I can get my hands on it. Everybody loves Weller around here. It's harder to. A lot of the best bourbons are hard to get your hands on these.

Dave Temple: 00:34:30

Days, but because it's so popular.

Wes Browne: 00:34:32

Yeah, but Eagle rare is pretty good.

Dave Temple: 00:34:35

I guess we got to throw some angels envy in there, too. Since we speak. Speaking about our girlfriend just a second ago. All right. Typewriter, pen or laptop?

Wes Browne: 00:34:44

Laptop.

Dave Temple: 00:34:45

Coffee, tea, or something harder? When you write.

Wes Browne: 00:34:47

None of the above.

Dave Temple: 00:34:48

Okay. When you're not writing, you enjoy blank. When you're. You're not selling pizza, you're not. You're not practicing law. You're just. Just for west time.

What do you like to do?

Wes Browne: 00:34:59

I came to the game of lacrosse late in life. My son's played it. I'm the oldest person to score a goal in the men's league in Lexington, Kentucky.

I got a hat trick in my last game, and then I had to quit because I thought I was gonna. I had pain in my Achilles tendon. But I love to play lacrosse.

Dave Temple: 00:35:18

Wow. I did not see that coming. Okay.

Wes Browne: 00:35:21

I took it up when I was 40 years old.

Dave Temple: 00:35:23

All right. Your favorite book you have read this year so far? It's May.

Wes Browne: 00:35:28

I'm not done with King of Ashes, but it's freaking good. S.A. cosby's king of Ashes. The thing is, of all the people I need to plug, I need to plug him the least. His book's going to sell no matter what.

So I was trying to think of someone who. Who needed it more.

Dave Temple: 00:35:40

Yeah, he.

Wes Browne: 00:35:40

But it didn't jump to mine.

Dave Temple: 00:35:42

He has become that guy, hasn't he? I mean, everything he touches turns to gold. All right, how about your favorite book of all time? Do you have that?

One of those that pops into your head?

Wes Browne: 00:35:50

I love Richard Russo. The risk pool. That's really a hard question, though. I've answered similar before, and, you know, there's 20.

Dave Temple: 00:36:00

I know, I know. Keep moving on. Name two books sitting atop your TBR stack you haven't even gotten to. But. And it can be any genre.

Wes Browne: 00:36:08

I don't give a. Deus Ex by Stephen Mac Jones. I just did an event with him. God, he's a lovely human being. I'm looking forward to reading that.

I just bought the first Lecair. How do you say it? Le Carre.

Dave Temple: 00:36:21

Le Carre.

Wes Browne: 00:36:22

Yeah, Le Carre. I just. I just bought his first one last week. I was on tour. Every bookshop I go to, I buy at least one book.

Dave Temple: 00:36:30

Here's the last one. You're invited to dinner with Tammy and me here in San Diego. Want you to come on back. You know how much you love it out here.

You get to bring one album or cd. I know it dates you. One album or cd, one covered dish. And one date, dead or alive. So what? And who would they be?

Wes Browne: 00:36:51

Are you familiar with my morning jacket from Louisville?

Dave Temple: 00:36:54

No.

Wes Browne: 00:36:55

I love them so much. And the first album of theirs, when I got into them was called It Still Moves. I would want to play It Still Moves for you. Covered dish.

I'd bring a Detroit style pizza.

Dave Temple: 00:37:07

Of course you would.

Wes Browne: 00:37:08

I would.

Dave Temple: 00:37:09

And your day.

Wes Browne: 00:37:10

I should say my wife because I would. She went to San Diego with me last time. We love San Diego.

My sister lived in San Diego for years, so I spent a lot of time in San Diego over the years because of that. I'd like to bring Paul Newman.

Dave Temple: 00:37:24

Okay.

Wes Browne: 00:37:25

I love Paul Newman. Just love him.

Dave Temple: 00:37:27

The quintessential true blue movie star.

Wes Browne: 00:37:29

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. This. This sets over my writing desk. All right, let's see if I can reach it. Careful.

Dave Temple: 00:37:35

Don't choke yourself. Nobody's Fool.

Wes Browne: 00:37:41

That's based on a Richard Russo novel.

Dave Temple: 00:37:44

Yes. You know what? I'm gonna put that on the list for this weekend. I remember that being such an incredible film.

He brought such a nuance to his performances.

Wes Browne: 00:37:55

Philip Seymour Hoffman's in it, too.

Dave Temple: 00:37:57

All right, last question. And we're rolling out. Best writing advice. You know, I close every store with a show with this. And you, I gotta ask you, because you've been.

You're too down officially. Although you've written since you were a youngster and you got a new one coming out.

But if you had to stand up in front of a group of people and say, here's my best writing advice, what would it be?

Wes Browne: 00:38:18

It's so boring. And I think we already covered it in a way. Write the book that you want to read.

Dave Temple: 00:38:23

Bingo Bango, Bongo.

Wes Browne: 00:38:26

And my other one on the side, you talked about Benjamin Percy earlier. Read his book, Thrill Me. If you're writing thrillers, we're on the thriller zone. Read his book, Thrill Me.

That's how I went from literary to thriller writer, honestly, was from through learning from Benjamin Percy how to make people create suspense and make people really interested in what you're doing.

Dave Temple: 00:38:46

Folks, once again, the book is they All Fall the same. Check them out.

Wes Browne: 00:38:50

It is wesbrownauthor.com.

Dave Temple: 00:38:53

Thank you. Know it. It'll be on the screen right here. Wes, this has been absolutely delightful.

Wes Browne: 00:38:59

I loved it.

Dave Temple: 00:39:00

Hey, and going back to San Diego, if you're out this way, since I know you love it so much, please make sure we spend some time. We'll go down on the studio downstairs and we'll sit there and just serve something cool and refreshing.

And we'll talk for hours on end, face to face.

Wes Browne: 00:39:14

Can we still get the pineapple sculping out there?

Dave Temple: 00:39:17

Yes, we can. As long as we promise each other that we will keep it to a six pack each.

Wes Browne: 00:39:22

Okay, I can keep that.

Dave Temple: 00:39:24

Or I guess they come in four packs now. They're taller and four packs rather than shorter. In six packs, about the same thing.

Wes Browne: 00:39:30

Folks, that is a really good way to justify by drinking a lot of beer.

Dave Temple: 00:39:36

Good stuff. Free audio post production by alphonic.com.