Dive Into The List: A Killer Conversation with Steve Berry
Hello and welcome to the 236th episode of The Thriller Zone with Dave Temple, Your #1 Thriller FIction Film & TV Podcast in the world!
Today we dive into the thrilling world of Steve Berry, the mastermind behind the gripping new book, "The List."
Spoiler alert: this episode reveals how the book was almost completely destroyed, and trust me, you’ll want to hear the wild tale behind that! We’ll also chat about the intricacies of writing thrillers, including some spicy advice on how to keep readers on the edge of their seats.
Steve shares his journey from a small-town lawyer to a bestselling author, highlighting the real-life inspirations that shaped his work.
So grab your favorite drink, sit back, and let’s unravel the secrets behind crafting stories that not only entertain but also provoke thought about the darker sides of human nature.
Takeaways:
- In this episode, we chatted with Steve Berry about the importance of writing structure, emphasizing the six C's that help create a compelling narrative.
- Steve shared a funny story about a book getting soaked by a cannonball splash, proving that not all book mishaps are tragic!
- We dove into the significance of outlining a novel before writing, noting that it can save a writer from many headaches down the line.
- Steve's advice for aspiring writers is straightforward: write every day to improve your craft, because practice makes perfect!
- The discussion also highlighted how thrillers differ from mysteries, focusing on the suspense of 'what will happen next' rather than just solving a crime.
- Lastly, we explored how real-world experiences can fuel fictional stories, with Steve revealing that his own legal background inspired many plot elements in his novels.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Steve Berry
- Mark Greeny
- Tim Chandler
- Blake Snyder
- Lee Child
- John Grisham
- Cotton Malone
KEYWORDS, thriller podcast, writing tips, Steve Berry, author interviews, thriller novels, book masterclass, storytelling techniques, character development, plot structure, suspense writing, creative writing advice, publishing industry insights, reader engagement, novel pacing, moral conflict in fiction, outlining a novel, writing process, fiction writing tips, literary themes in thrillers, book recommendations
Host and former radio star David "Dave" Temple interviews the biggest, brightest, and best thriller writers of thriller fiction, thriller and mystery films, thriller and suspense television, and more. With four years on the podcast, nearly 25 years of radio experience, and another 15 years as an actor and voiceover narrator, Dave has the credibility required to access and interview the very best and New York Times bestselling authors in the world. Tune in each week as he breaks down the magic, or the "secret sauce" of his guests. During his segment called "Best Writing Advice," Dave's audience learns the very best insights to what makes a super successful thriller fiction writer.
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Transcript
Hello and welcome to the Thriller Zone.
Speaker A:Guess who?
Speaker A:Dave Temple, your host.
Speaker A:So nice to have you here on today's show.
Speaker A:A prolific author, you've known him for many years.
Speaker A:I'm gonna give you a hint.
Speaker A:The word cotton shows up in one of his books.
Speaker A:But today it's D. Berry.
Speaker A:Today it's the list.
Speaker A:And stay tuned to find out why this book got completely destroyed.
Speaker A:Also find out what this book masterclass has any relevance to today's show.
Speaker A:That's right, it's a doozy.
Speaker A:Hey, by the way, as you have heard me say before, I love it when I hear from my listeners.
Speaker A:I love it when you just write in and say, hey, Dave, what's happening?
Speaker A:What's going on?
Speaker A:I like your show.
Speaker A:I hate your show.
Speaker A:Doesn't even matter what it is.
Speaker A:Either way, I'd love to hear from you.
Speaker A:You can drop us an email@the thrillerzonemail.com.
Speaker A:you can also visit our website at the thrillerzone.com of today, I had a recording come in from a Tim Chandler and he left me this voicemail.
Speaker A:Let's take a listen.
Speaker B:Hey there.
Speaker B:I found your YouTube podcast interviews.
Speaker B:I was looking for information Mark Greeny and discovered him and a whole bunch of other authors I love.
Speaker B:So keep up the good work.
Speaker B:I appreciate it.
Speaker B:And I'm working on my own Thriller novel.
Speaker B:So maybe someday I'll get a chance to talk to you directly.
Speaker B:Thanks.
Speaker B:You have a good day.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:Thank you, Tim Chandler.
Speaker A:And if you'd like to leave us a recording, as you know, you can just go to our website, the thrillerzone.com.
Speaker A:you'll see that little microphone at the bottom.
Speaker A:Click on it, record it and leave it for us.
Speaker A:We'd love to hear from you.
Speaker A:All right, without any further ado, please welcome one of the guys that has taught me quite a bit about writing.
Speaker A:Probably one of the greatest writers out there today, the one, the only, Steve Barry, right here on the Thriller Zone.
Speaker A:Steve, you got me curious, what were you wearing before?
Speaker C:I had a T shirt on.
Speaker C:I live in Florida, so I wear a bathing suit T shirt all day long.
Speaker C:I mean, it's 100 degrees outside right now.
Speaker C:So I go get in the pool.
Speaker C:I come back.
Speaker C:I don't really wear.
Speaker C:I just had a T shirt on, so that's not very good.
Speaker A:Well, there are some people in the audience that would probably really enjoy that.
Speaker C:Yeah, I don't want to kind of keep the image up.
Speaker A:All right, a couple things.
Speaker A:You got your.
Speaker A:All your ducks in a row.
Speaker A:You got your lights, you got your Microphones, you got a handsome back background.
Speaker A:You got.
Speaker A:We got 30 minutes.
Speaker A:I'm going to try to get in and out so you can get back to your pool.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:100 degrees.
Speaker A:Get out of here.
Speaker C:It's probably 97 outside right now with 100% humidity.
Speaker C:It's like a steam bath out there.
Speaker C:But that's Florida.
Speaker A:Yeah, I used to live in North Carolina, so we got close.
Speaker A:But I have family in Miami.
Speaker A:And when we go down this time of year, which is not very often, I'm like, what the hell are y' all doing?
Speaker C:You just get used to it.
Speaker C:I'm.
Speaker C:I've lived in all my life, so I'm very accustomed to it.
Speaker A:Well, Steve, first of all, welcome to the Thriller Zone.
Speaker A:This is a huge honor.
Speaker C:Well, thanks for having me.
Speaker C:I don't think I've ever been on this show before.
Speaker A:No, you haven't.
Speaker A:And I wasn't even aware that you did podcast because I, you know, I hadn't shown up on my radar.
Speaker A:But to be able to get you, and I've been trying for this for some time.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:I'm quite excited.
Speaker C:Okay, well, glad.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker C:Thank you for having me.
Speaker C:Now, the book comes out on the 22nd of July.
Speaker C:So when will this air?
Speaker A:I'm dropping you on Wednesday the 16th.
Speaker C:That's a week before.
Speaker C:Can you push it to the 23rd by chance?
Speaker A:Well, dude, your wish is my command.
Speaker A:Look at that.
Speaker A:I'm going to show you that.
Speaker C:And let's assume the book's already out.
Speaker A:Let me show you how easy this is.
Speaker A:Arrow to here.
Speaker A:Done.
Speaker A:Couple things.
Speaker A:Speaking of.
Speaker A:Speaking of pool, I was going to show you this beautiful book, but it got kind of.
Speaker A:It got my.
Speaker A:I was out by the pool last weekend and some kid decided to.
Speaker A:And I laid it down on my chair.
Speaker A:Some kid decided to do a cannonball.
Speaker A:Completely soaked.
Speaker A:It took me about four days to hang it to dry, and the back is flipping off.
Speaker A:But the good news is I got through it and it's.
Speaker A:It's a dandy reed.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker A:That's my first piece of show and tell.
Speaker A:And then I'm going to get drilling on you.
Speaker C:Okay, go ahead.
Speaker A:Here's my second piece of this old piece of shit book called Masterclasses.
Speaker A:Just my book.
Speaker A: July: Speaker A:I met you at Thriller Fest.
Speaker A:You won't remember.
Speaker A:I was a lot younger then, and this was.
Speaker A:And I'm going to sound like I'm blowing smoke, but I'm not because I got.
Speaker A:I can rattle off all the other people I Sat in on their presentations.
Speaker A:But yours, for some reason, got multiple highlights.
Speaker C:Oh, very nice.
Speaker C:So you were in my master class.
Speaker A:I was in your master class.
Speaker A:And I was like, excuse my language.
Speaker A:But I was like, holy, this guy's breaking it down for me.
Speaker A:Like, boom, boom.
Speaker A:I will never for.
Speaker A:I don't know why yours stuck out.
Speaker A:I think it's because you were.
Speaker A:You're so.
Speaker A:No nonsense.
Speaker C:When I'm.
Speaker C:When I'm teaching writing, I just lay it out the way it is.
Speaker C:That's the way I was taught, so that's the way I do it.
Speaker A:Well, can I just bring up a couple quick things?
Speaker A:I won't belabor too much, but this is the six C's of story structure.
Speaker C:Correct.
Speaker A:And if you have a lisp, you're really messed up.
Speaker A:The thick thieves of Thori structure.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Act one, act two, act three, character conflict.
Speaker A:Crucible is act one at about 20% of the book.
Speaker C:Correct.
Speaker A:Act two, complications riddled with subplots.
Speaker A:That's act two.
Speaker C:60%.
Speaker A:That's 60%.
Speaker A:And your remaining 20% for those mathematicians in the audience is act three with crisis, point and conclusion.
Speaker A:Now, that is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 C's.
Speaker A:Now that.
Speaker A:I mean, that's all it is right there.
Speaker A:And I started applying that to my stories right away.
Speaker A:And it works.
Speaker C:It's the.
Speaker C:It's a.
Speaker C:It's the way I was taught.
Speaker C:It's the way stories are to be laid out.
Speaker C:And when you read a story that you don't like or why you don't stick with it, you'll usually identify that that rule has been broken somehow in some respects.
Speaker A:Now, I'm a big fan of Blake Snyder's Save the Cat, but it can get a wee bit convoluted because it's like 15 or 17 points.
Speaker A:I can't recall, but this is so much easier.
Speaker C:Try to keep it simple because it's hard enough as it is.
Speaker C:You don't want to make it any harder, you know?
Speaker C:Yeah, it's hard enough.
Speaker C:But thank you for remembering the stuff.
Speaker C:I'm glad it helped you.
Speaker A:Well, Steve, I don't want to geek out too much for you, but I'm going to say, once again, this was.
Speaker A:This was a turning point for me.
Speaker C:That was the last time I taught that class.
Speaker C:I haven't never taught it since.
Speaker A:Well, I feel blessed to have gotten into it.
Speaker A:2019, that was a big year for me because I got to meet all my writing stars.
Speaker A: That was: Speaker A:This show is now officially, as of last week, four years in the making, and you're going to be like 200, almost 50 episodes.
Speaker A:So we're, we're doing something right.
Speaker C:Very good.
Speaker C: there was no thriller fest in: Speaker C:And then I haven't been back to Thriller fest since then.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:All right, two more points and we're going to bounce off.
Speaker A:One is outline a novel before you write.
Speaker A:Now, I, I have.
Speaker A:We have talked about pantsers and plotters until my head's gonna spin off.
Speaker A:But you said you make a comment about if you don't get the structure right, and if you don't at least contemplate outlining it, you're.
Speaker A:You're fubar.
Speaker C:Well, not until.
Speaker C:Yeah, you've got to do it in the beginning.
Speaker C:I did the first four novels that way.
Speaker C:After you do.
Speaker C:I've done 27.
Speaker C:Now after you do a few, you don't have to outline the whole book, but you do have to have a, a pattern of where you're going.
Speaker C:I, I stay about 50 to 75 pages ahead of myself outlining, but I have a journal.
Speaker C:But you just get a little bit better feel for it.
Speaker C:I'm a little more of a pantser now than a, than a planner.
Speaker C:As the older I've gotten, I've got a little more.
Speaker C:But that just comes from experience.
Speaker C:You just get it.
Speaker C:You just get better at being able to plot well.
Speaker A:And you also have a.
Speaker A:Such a natural rhythm to your writing.
Speaker A:You know, the scene sets up, you paint the picture of the, the world.
Speaker A:Then you get into dialogue.
Speaker A:You give.
Speaker A:You give us just enough subtext of, oh, what's going on in the room?
Speaker A:And there's more dialogue.
Speaker A:I'm a big dialogue fan.
Speaker A:So last thing.
Speaker A:This is the one thing.
Speaker A:I have a great big pink question mark.
Speaker A:And I said, if I ever get to meet Steve one day, I'm going to ask him this.
Speaker A:So here we close with this.
Speaker C:All right.
Speaker A:Sequels do not work in thrillers.
Speaker C:Nope, they do not.
Speaker C:Because you have to assume a sequel is.
Speaker C:A sequel is.
Speaker C:You have to have read the first book.
Speaker C:If you have not read the first book, the second book is completely.
Speaker C:You're completely lost.
Speaker C:Doesn't work in thrillers.
Speaker C:Works great in mystery, works great in romance, Works great in science fiction.
Speaker C:Doesn't work in thrillers.
Speaker C:It's never worked in thrillers.
Speaker C:You have to have a complete story finished, done.
Speaker C:Now, if you want to take it and go forward with that, that's great.
Speaker C:But it's got to be a second complete story that does not Rely on the reader having to read the first one.
Speaker A:Okay, okay.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:That makes sense.
Speaker C:That's the difference.
Speaker C:It's like Godfather 1 and Godfather 2.
Speaker C:You can watch Godfather 2 and never seen Godfather 1.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And you know exactly what's going on.
Speaker C:That's not a sequel.
Speaker C:That was it.
Speaker C:That was a continuation of the story.
Speaker C:The story just kept going and that's the way thrillers have to be.
Speaker C:They've never.
Speaker C:I wish we could.
Speaker C:I wish we could write it episodic like that and hang and go to the next one and do another, but it's.
Speaker C:No one's ever successfully done that.
Speaker C:No one.
Speaker C:Not in the thriller business.
Speaker C:The successful thriller writers are like Cussler.
Speaker C:Each one is standalone.
Speaker C:There are series, but they stand alone.
Speaker C:Jack Reacher, same thing.
Speaker C:Series, but standalone.
Speaker C:Same with mine.
Speaker C:You can read mine in any order you want and you can skip around and you won't have a problem.
Speaker C:You won't have any problem whatsoever.
Speaker C:The trick to writing a series, every book has to be the same, but different.
Speaker C:Same, but different.
Speaker C:That's the trick.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Boy, there's.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:That's a line you hear over and over, isn't it?
Speaker C:Same, but different.
Speaker C:But Lee Child taught me that.
Speaker C:Same, but different.
Speaker A:What's he doing now, by the way?
Speaker C:He's kind of semi retired now.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, he lives out in the west in Wyoming and Colorado, and his brother writes the books and he kind of just kind of oversees it now.
Speaker A:Yeah, they're both such dandy guys.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:I really like them.
Speaker A:All right, well, the.
Speaker A:Now, the list, as we mentioned earlier, and please excuse the.
Speaker A:Usually I get hardbacks or I'll get a little bit better, but you know, the water did the damage in this one.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:The idea is kind of secret controlling force behind world events.
Speaker A:So I'm famous for my two part question.
Speaker A:So first of all, what inspired you to tackle this theme?
Speaker A:And secondly, how much of it do you feel reflects our current reality versus just pure fiction?
Speaker C:Well, I wrote the book as well.
Speaker C:You may or may not.
Speaker C:Now, I wrote the book 33 years ago.
Speaker C:The original story was written 33 years ago.
Speaker C:Now, it was not ready to print.
Speaker C:I mean, it was terribly written.
Speaker C: I took it out during COVID in: Speaker C:The story is basically the same, but how it's told is very different.
Speaker C:Because I'd learned so much about how to write a novel, so I was able to Write it in a where readers can read it.
Speaker C:The book is.
Speaker C:The story is kind of autobiographical.
Speaker C:I lived a lot of this.
Speaker C:I lived a lot of what Brent Walker does.
Speaker C:I was a small town lawyer.
Speaker C:I represented the electrical union at the mill.
Speaker C:I represented the company.
Speaker C:And one day I was in an arbitration hearing and it just kind of occurred to me, I said, well, wait a minute now.
Speaker C:What if the company just didn't worry about all this?
Speaker C:What if they didn't worry about arbitrations?
Speaker C:What if they were self insured and they had a way of controlling their high cost items?
Speaker C:Their retirement program is self funded.
Speaker C:What if they could control the payouts of that in a very unique way?
Speaker C:And that way, of course, was murder.
Speaker C:If they used murder to control all that.
Speaker C:So it occurred to me, I said this would be a pretty interesting way for a company to get an edge on everybody else.
Speaker C:And so the list was born and I wrote it.
Speaker C:The Firm by Grisham was really hot then.
Speaker C:It was a hot, hot book at that time.
Speaker C:So its influence is clear here a little bit.
Speaker C:But this is a very different book from the firm, a very different book in how it plays out.
Speaker C:But it just occurred to me what would happen if a company decided to kill off their problems and not worry about it.
Speaker C:You know, you don't kill them all, you just kill a few.
Speaker C:Enough to keep you solvent.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And so the list came from that.
Speaker C:Does it reflect anything in real life?
Speaker C:No, it's strictly fiction.
Speaker C:I mean, just strictly an idea of mine.
Speaker A:Or is it?
Speaker C:Yeah, who knows?
Speaker C:Who knows?
Speaker C:Who knows?
Speaker A:I gotta tell you, that opening prologue, one of my favorite.
Speaker A:I got a note here that I usually make notes in here.
Speaker A:One of them said one of the best prologues I've read in years.
Speaker A:That that is.
Speaker C:Well, I wanted you to get a feel for what.
Speaker C:How these guys work and what they do and how they put it together.
Speaker C:I wanted you to see them.
Speaker C:This book's a little unique in that I don't hide the fact of what's going on in the.
Speaker A:This book.
Speaker C:You know that right up front.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:There's no secret of what they're doing, it's just how they're doing it and then how it unravels.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:How it comes apart.
Speaker C:This is about the unraveling of all of this.
Speaker C:Not, you know, I. I remember when I first wrote it, I tried to keep the secret, but it made no sense, you know?
Speaker C:So when I rewrote it, I adjusted all that.
Speaker C:I said, there's no point in that.
Speaker C:This, this is about the unraveling and Brent Walker getting caught up in that unraveling and what's going to happen to him while all this plays out.
Speaker A:Well.
Speaker A:And I found it interesting because at the beginning, I'll admit, when I'm reading it, I'm like, well, I know exactly what's going right out of the gate.
Speaker A:And in an instant I'm like, it doesn't matter.
Speaker A:I'm along for a ride because you gave me two different points of view.
Speaker A:And so you start off in this nice, warm fuzzy.
Speaker A:I'm a big fan of warm fuzzy.
Speaker A:And then a little bit comes in out of nowhere and you're like, oh, I didn't see that coming.
Speaker A:But I think what I most enjoy, Steve, is the precision with which the bad guys work and the thought behind it.
Speaker C:Yeah, there's a rules.
Speaker C:These are not haphazard things.
Speaker C:They're very good at what they do because they don't want to get caught.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:And of course, you just don't murder anybody.
Speaker C:It has to be.
Speaker C:They kill people, but in a very ingenious way.
Speaker C:And they give a lot of thought to it.
Speaker C:Now what happens, of course, is greed takes over and stupidity comes with greed, and you start making mistakes, and that's what happens.
Speaker C:And so like I said, when I rewrote it, I made those adjustments that this is about the unraveling of this problem, not me shocking you.
Speaker C:What they're doing.
Speaker C:I mean, I wanted you to know.
Speaker C:You learn pretty much in the first 50 pages what's going on.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, but then.
Speaker C:But what you don't know, there's a little more to it than what you think.
Speaker C:And that's what comes later.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker C:That's what's so delicious that I could hide from you.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you did, sir.
Speaker A:I remember a conversation I had with an SBI agent.
Speaker A:God had been about 30 years ago.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:I was over at his house, we're just hanging out, having a beer, and he and I.
Speaker A:And he had some photographs laying around.
Speaker A:And he goes, do you want to see some of these?
Speaker A:He knew I was interested in writing, and I said, sure.
Speaker A:And they're murder scenes and pretty violent ones.
Speaker A:And one that forever is burned in my memory, sad to say, was this person got hit multiple times with a ball peen hammer upside the head.
Speaker A:And I said, boy, who had any idea it was that kind of damage?
Speaker A:He goes, well, when you think about what this is made of.
Speaker A:And then we went on from there and I said, listen, let me ask you something.
Speaker A:I'll call him Steve.
Speaker A:Steve.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker A:What?
Speaker A:Is there a way?
Speaker A:What is there a way?
Speaker A:And if there is, what is the way you can get away with murder?
Speaker A:He stopped and he looked at me and he said, there's one way.
Speaker A:Now of course I'm thinking, okay, this is going to be a doozy.
Speaker A:Let me hear what it is.
Speaker A:And he goes, one way and one way only.
Speaker A:I said, what is it?
Speaker A:He said, never tell anyone.
Speaker C:That's true.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:He goes, yeah, never tell anyone.
Speaker A:Not your friend, not your lover, not your best friend, not nobody, period.
Speaker C:That's why the professional hitmen are so good at it.
Speaker C:You know, they tell no one.
Speaker C:They do.
Speaker C:No one.
Speaker C:And that's what the priority program was.
Speaker C:Everything is tight, right in there.
Speaker C:Tight.
Speaker C:No mistakes allowed, no mistakes tolerated.
Speaker C:And so that's what occurred to me when I wrote the book the first time.
Speaker C:I said, you know, you could get away with it if you're careful and if you, if you use your brain.
Speaker C:But as I said, eventually human beings are involved and greed and takes over and mistakes are made.
Speaker C:And that's what the book's about.
Speaker A:Well, you know, a lot of thriller writers as I've spoken to with over the four years, they said, you know, they kind of sometimes will shy away from polarizing ideas.
Speaker A:It made me wonder, what are some of the reactions that have surprised you most from readers in this time?
Speaker C:Well, I mean, what I deal with with the Cotton Malone series, you know, is I deal with very.
Speaker C:I deal with things from the past that still have relevance today.
Speaker C:And so the topics are very relevant today.
Speaker C:And I try to keep them as topical as I can.
Speaker C:A lot of times people get a little too much and they don't realize that it's fiction, it's not real.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And you know, they'll want to tell me this and that, this and that.
Speaker C:And of course you want to write back and say you do understand that this is not real.
Speaker C:It's not.
Speaker C:I made it up, you understand.
Speaker C:And so, but they, they want it to be so close and, and I've.
Speaker C:That's sort of my own fault because my Cott Malone books are about 90% to history.
Speaker C:I keep them about 90% to reality, I trip them up about 10% and I put a writer's note in the back of the book to tell you where that happens.
Speaker C:So I'm careful there.
Speaker C:This book, it'll be interesting to see what the reaction is from it.
Speaker C:You know, that, you know, companies can be somewhat cold hearted, companies can be somewhat bottom line Oriented and it'll be interesting to see what, what folks find here to, to call me out on.
Speaker C:There's always something in each book for.
Speaker A:Some reason, and I hope this is the compliment that I am intending because it is one of my all time favorites.
Speaker A:One of those movies that if it's on when I am just lounging about, maybe it's a cloudy day here in San Diego and it comes on, I'm gonna watch it.
Speaker A:And it's Michael Clayton.
Speaker C:Yeah, I like that.
Speaker C:I know that movie.
Speaker A:And it, for some reason, this book reminded of me.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's the subterfuge, it's the sea.
Speaker A:You know, you, you're kind of famous for secret societies and hidden truths.
Speaker A:This doesn't have a secret society, but it certainly has one great big fat glaring secret in it.
Speaker A:And it's the way that it's unpeeled and unraveled that makes me so intrigued.
Speaker C:He's a fixer.
Speaker C:That's what he does.
Speaker C:He fixes things.
Speaker C:And of course, things unravel on him as well.
Speaker C:It's kind of like here, it's just a little more.
Speaker C:The stakes are a little higher here and that people are dying from it, but it's just a.
Speaker C:It just occurred, you know, as I said, a lot of this came out of my own practice because I was a lawyer like Brent Walker is, and I lived in a town similar to where Brent lives.
Speaker C:And we lived in a company town.
Speaker C:And when you're in a company town, you know, things are very different in a company town because the company runs the town.
Speaker C:And I lived in one of those for about 10, 12 years until the Kings Bay Naval Submarine Base came.
Speaker C:And that all changed.
Speaker C:Everything changed.
Speaker C:Wasn't a company town anymore, but it's just a.
Speaker C:It's a.
Speaker C:It's a peculiar institution, particularly in the South.
Speaker C:There used to be so many of them.
Speaker C:They're all gone now.
Speaker C:I don't think there's any left anymore.
Speaker C:But St. Mary's was one for a long, long time.
Speaker C:For about 45 years.
Speaker A:You know, you talk about.
Speaker A:This book was written so long ago.
Speaker A:If you were to write it again today, like you could just.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Rework the whole world.
Speaker A:Knowing what you know today in the, in our current times, what would you.
Speaker A:Do you think you've done differently?
Speaker C:No, I wouldn't do anything.
Speaker C: That's what I did in: Speaker C:That's exactly what I did.
Speaker C:I brought the book forward.
Speaker A:Oh, copy that.
Speaker C:You know, forward 30 years.
Speaker C:Adjusted certain things.
Speaker C:For example, when I wrote the book the first time there were no cell phones.
Speaker A:Oh yeah.
Speaker C:Remember?
Speaker C:No cell phones.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:So I had to, I had to readjust everything because, you know, Brent's looking for a telephone for phone.
Speaker C:He doesn't have to have that anymore.
Speaker C:So I had to, I had to incorporate new technology, computers.
Speaker C: We didn't have computers in: Speaker C:We didn't have any of this stuff.
Speaker C:So I, I basically did that during COVID I brought the book forward.
Speaker C:I also tightened it up.
Speaker C: The original book was about: Speaker C:This was about 103.
Speaker C:So I took out about 13,000 words.
Speaker C:So I tightened it and got it much tighter.
Speaker C:100,000 word thriller is a good length for a thriller.
Speaker C:So it's very tight, which means it moves very fast.
Speaker A:This is, this is superb timing for the question I was just getting ready to ask you.
Speaker A:What do you feel is kind of what I call the sweet spot for thrillers?
Speaker C:Well, the number one thing you got to do, you got to thrill.
Speaker C:I mean, absolutely, you have to have thrills from the page one all the way through.
Speaker C:You've got to have.
Speaker C:You've got to thrill the reader.
Speaker C:The reader's got to be kept off guard at all times because remember the difference between a mystery book and a thriller.
Speaker C:A mystery is about what happened.
Speaker C:A thriller is about what's going to happen.
Speaker C:Those are two different ways of plotting things.
Speaker C:So you've got to have a thrill and you've got to keep that going all the way through.
Speaker C:And you've got to keep the reader engaged all the way through.
Speaker C:That's the number one thing.
Speaker C:Pacing in a thriller is so important.
Speaker C:And that's really what I changed here more than anything in the rewrite.
Speaker C:As I picked up the pacing, I made the pacing much faster.
Speaker C:This book really moves very, very fast.
Speaker C:A lot happens very quickly.
Speaker A:And more specifically for that question, so I can put a finer point on, it is the sweet spot of numbers because you said you went from 120ish to around 1ish.
Speaker A:You know, what do you think ballpark number for like the ideal thriller read?
Speaker C:Ideal.
Speaker C:I mean, I mean a thriller, a thriller shit needs to be as long as it needs to be.
Speaker C:That's really what needs to be.
Speaker C:But I would say that if you get much over about110,115, it better be really interesting, it better be really good.
Speaker C:Because your reader, you know, you got to look at it closely.
Speaker C:I used to, I used to write them in around the 115 level.
Speaker C:I do it now.
Speaker C:Around 100.
Speaker C:I just turned in next year's Cotton Malone book, and it's 92,000.
Speaker C:That's the tightest I've ever done it.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker C:Now, that's hard.
Speaker C:I mean, shorter is better, but Shorter is harder.
Speaker C:Yeah, a lot, lot harder.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:But.
Speaker C:But 92,000, it just clips.
Speaker C:I mean, there's no filler.
Speaker C:There's no.
Speaker C:It just moves.
Speaker C:Everything's moving quick.
Speaker C:And as I get older, I'm trying to write the books tighter, tighter.
Speaker C:And people would say, well, you didn't write as many words, so it was easier.
Speaker C:No, no, actually, it was much harder.
Speaker C:It was extremely harder.
Speaker C:It's much easier to write 120,000 words than it is to write 90,000 words, but you try to keep it.
Speaker C:I think a good thriller in that hundred thousand, you know, range is a good length that a thriller writer ought to be looking at.
Speaker C:Much over that.
Speaker C:I did one book at 130, Charlemagne Pursuit.
Speaker C:It's the longest book I ever did, but it was a big story.
Speaker C:It was a very large story.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:That's the longest I've ever done.
Speaker C:And then most of the others have stayed down in that 110, 115 range.
Speaker C:So I would encourage.
Speaker C:Shorter is always better, so I always encourage them to go short.
Speaker A:Now, two things pop into my head.
Speaker A:One is I just read a book recently by a new author, Thomas Trang Dead Neon Dirt.
Speaker A:I'm gonna hack the title.
Speaker A:It doesn't matter.
Speaker A:The book was clocking at about 82, 85.
Speaker A:That thing read so fast.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I read it in one day.
Speaker A:It was just brilliant.
Speaker A:Point number two.
Speaker A:I'm talking to Emily Bessler.
Speaker A:You know her.
Speaker A:She was on the show recently, and we were talking about this very topic.
Speaker A:And she goes, david, I'll tell you the truth, David.
Speaker A:And I'd love to imitate her perfectly because she's so sweet, but I don't care if it's 110, 120, 130, 140 if you keep me reading.
Speaker A:And it's interesting, I don't care how long it is.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker C:She goes, I agree with her.
Speaker C:Yeah, but it better be really good when you get up in that 120.
Speaker A:And she said, but.
Speaker A:But it better be so good, because you're asking a lot of the reader.
Speaker C:You are.
Speaker C:You're asking a lot of the reader at that point.
Speaker C:And now in the fantasy world, you can do that.
Speaker C:They want very thick books.
Speaker C:They want big, giant books, you know, but in the thriller business, no, no, no, no.
Speaker C:No, they want it tight.
Speaker C:Get it as tight as you can, as you can do it because the tighter you write it, the quicker you can read it and the read, the.
Speaker A:More intense is the read.
Speaker A:And I, I personally feel like, you know, I, I, I like these guys who were cranking about a little bit faster than they used to be.
Speaker A:I remember the time, you remember this time you were doing it one book a year, maybe one every year and a half.
Speaker A:Even, you know, knocking on two years door now it's like the people are going, oh, I want one a year minimum.
Speaker A:I'd really like to have two a year.
Speaker A:What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker C:I can't, I, I have done that recently.
Speaker C:Recently I've had two a year because I did the Cotton Malone series and I did Luke Daniels series.
Speaker C:But I had help here.
Speaker C:I had Grant Blackwood helping me with here.
Speaker C:I physically can't write two books a year because of the amount of research and everything that goes into these.
Speaker C:There's no, there's, there's just no way.
Speaker C:But I could do it with Grant's help.
Speaker C:So for the last three years I've, last two years I've had two books a year and, but that's over now.
Speaker C:Now we'll go to one book, back to one book a year and I much prefer that.
Speaker A:Well, there is something about your storytelling is a bit more languorous than I generally read.
Speaker A:I'm reading about two, three books a week and so I'm kind of looking for that super fast read.
Speaker A:But you know, you still, you're not in Thomas Wolf territory where he's clocking 140 and you know, he spends an entire chapter as he's walked into the room.
Speaker A:He hasn't even gotten into the room and done anything yet.
Speaker A:You know, so it's a literary style.
Speaker C:And he wrote in a literary style.
Speaker C:Yeah, you can't do that in the thriller business at all.
Speaker C:I, so I, I try to keep the Cott Malone books, as I said, I just did 92.
Speaker C:I'm hoping to keep them all between 90 and 100 now.
Speaker C:Yeah, that's what I'd like to do because I, I know this, this one I just finished.
Speaker C:My wife is my first editor who reads it.
Speaker C:She came up and said, that thing just read.
Speaker C:Wow, that thing read fast.
Speaker C:Yeah, 92,000.
Speaker C:Read fast, really quick.
Speaker C:And so that's what you want and that's what I'm going to try.
Speaker C:But as I said, it's harder.
Speaker C:It's much harder.
Speaker A:Well, I'm not going to try to do the math in my head, because I'm not that great of a mathematician, but I'm looking back to your 20, 60, 20 rule.
Speaker A:And if I had 90,000 as a round number, that would be 18,000 in.
Speaker C:The front and back and the rest in the middle.
Speaker A:See, you did it so much faster than me.
Speaker C:18,000 roughly, would be 20, probably 40, 50 pages in the front, 40, 50 pages in the back, and then the rest in the middle.
Speaker A:You know what I love about watching you, Steve, is you've done it for so long.
Speaker A:It's kind of like good golfers.
Speaker A:They don't get up and they don't do a whole lot of practice swings.
Speaker A:They knew what the swing will do.
Speaker A:They know what the grip will do, what the swing will do.
Speaker A:They just get up and rip it.
Speaker C:I'm the same way.
Speaker C:I can.
Speaker C:I play golf very fast.
Speaker C:Yeah, very fast.
Speaker C:I can do 18 holes.
Speaker C:We do 18 holes around here in about two and a half hours.
Speaker A:Okay, that is moving.
Speaker C:We move, we don't.
Speaker C:Because I'm not going to hit it any better thinking about it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Isn't that the truth?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, that whole.
Speaker A:That whole.
Speaker A:Okay, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to do this and just hit it.
Speaker A:And the guys I don't want to play with are the guys who do this.
Speaker A:Temple, get your head down.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Watch your right hand.
Speaker A:You shut the hell up because I.
Speaker A:You're in my head too much.
Speaker C:Just.
Speaker C:Just hit it.
Speaker C:Just hit it.
Speaker A:We're rolling on our clothes.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:I got two big points here.
Speaker A:There.
Speaker A:Maybe my.
Speaker A:Called my fancy questions.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:One's on the protagonist, one's on the antagonist.
Speaker A:First of all, one of the most fascinating aspects of your protagonist in the list is how he's caught between his ideals and the machinery of power that he uncovers.
Speaker A:How much of his moral conflict was inspired by your own observations of people in power?
Speaker C:Quite.
Speaker C:Quite a bit, actually.
Speaker C:I watched.
Speaker C:I watched that conflict in people, not necessarily with murder involved, but with other stakes involved.
Speaker C:When business executives are making decisions that adversely affect a great many people with little or no empathy for what they're doing and things.
Speaker C:I watch those things.
Speaker C:And so, as I said, this is a lot autobiographical that I got to experience and be with.
Speaker C:So that quandary, that conflict, I call it the conflict of the human heart.
Speaker C:Conflict of the human heart is the best conflict you can have in a story because everyone can relate to it.
Speaker C:And Brent Walker definitely has some conflict here.
Speaker C:He's got problems with what happened with his wife.
Speaker C:He's got problems with the love of his life that he may or may not need to be with.
Speaker C:He's got all kinds of issues that he's got to deal with.
Speaker C:And then while that's going on, here comes all this other stuff piled right on top of it.
Speaker A:And folks, it's.
Speaker A:The other stuff is the reason why you want to read it.
Speaker C:Yeah, we're not going to tell you that.
Speaker C:That I could hold secret.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:And now on the antagonist, he in the list isn't just a villain.
Speaker A:And I love villains that are really smart and calculated.
Speaker A:They're a chilling reflection of how influence can be weaponized.
Speaker A:Now, how did you build such calculating yet believable figure?
Speaker A:And were they inspired by any real world figures or events you were seeing at that time?
Speaker C:I would say yes.
Speaker C:I saw people make some very heartless decisions.
Speaker C:Now, I represented the employees for a while and then I represented the company for a while.
Speaker C:So I saw it on both sides of that.
Speaker C:And it occurred to me, you know, what if these people were just totally amoral?
Speaker C:What if they had no value structure whatsoever?
Speaker C:What if they just didn't simply cater?
Speaker C:And that's really where the story came from as it began to hit me as I saw these very callous decisions that were made sometimes to the detriment of a lot of folks.
Speaker C:And those happen every day.
Speaker C:And just in the list, they have much more graphic and much more deadly consequences.
Speaker A:Yeah, we see some of that going on right now in our current state of affairs.
Speaker A:Politically, I could infer if I wanted to not go deeper, which I won't.
Speaker C:Yeah, me neither.
Speaker C:But, yeah, you have to be careful with those decisions sometimes, you know, there's consequences to what you do.
Speaker A:Isn't that the truth?
Speaker C:And that's what the list is all about.
Speaker C:There are consequences to what you do.
Speaker A:There are consequences to what you do.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:That sounds like something.
Speaker A:My dad.
Speaker A:My dad was a Methodist minister growing up, so he had a.
Speaker A:He had a.
Speaker A:He was always infer.
Speaker A:Nut now you can do that, son.
Speaker A:Yeah, if that's what you think.
Speaker A:Now, I've taught you the.
Speaker A:What I think is the right way.
Speaker A:But if that.
Speaker A:If that's what you think you need to do.
Speaker A:But I want you to know there are going to be some consequences down that road and you are going to have to handle.
Speaker A:Not me.
Speaker A:You can't come back to me and go, but, dad, help me.
Speaker C:And that's basically what the list is about.
Speaker C:And Brent Walker's Forced to deal with those.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, Steve, as we close, and I.
Speaker A:Of course, you didn't tell me this when we're.
Speaker A: When you're up on stage in: Speaker A:What is your best writing advice?
Speaker A:Now, this is especially for those aspiring writers who want to make it in this crazy, kooky world of publishing.
Speaker C:It's simple, and it's not cliche.
Speaker C:And I'm deadly serious when I say this.
Speaker C:You have to keep writing.
Speaker C:There's only one way to learn the craft of writing, and that is you have to do it.
Speaker C:You can't talk about it.
Speaker C:You can't think about it.
Speaker C:You can't hope it'll come to you.
Speaker C:You have to sit down every day and write every day, all the time.
Speaker C:Because all you can hope for as a writer is what you wrote today is a little bit better than what you wrote yesterday, and what you write tomorrow is a little bit better than what you wrote today.
Speaker C:You never get good at it.
Speaker C:You never get great at it.
Speaker C:You just get a little bit better each day as you learn how to do it.
Speaker C:And that there's only one way to do that, and that's write.
Speaker C:You have to write all the time, and you have to learn the craft of writing because you have to teach yourself.
Speaker C:There's no such thing as a writing teacher.
Speaker C:No one can teach you anything.
Speaker C:But there are people, just like I did with you.
Speaker C:There are people that can teach you how to teach yourself how to write.
Speaker C:And that's what we did with that.
Speaker C:We gave you some tools, and you use those to teach yourself.
Speaker C:And that's the only way to do that, is to write.
Speaker C:Just so.
Speaker A:That's my advice, and it's superb.
Speaker A:You broke it down for me.
Speaker A:What's that now?
Speaker A:How many years ago?
Speaker A:Six years ago.
Speaker C:Six years ago.
Speaker A:And it was.
Speaker A:It just for some reason, you've seen a coin drop in a slot and it just goes.
Speaker A:It was just like that.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:No, I appreciate you, and I. I have followed your career for a while now.
Speaker A:I'm gonna guess you're probably about 50, 55.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker A:When.
Speaker A:And this is just my own personal curiosity, when.
Speaker A:When was the first time.
Speaker A:How old were you?
Speaker A:When you sat down, you said, you know what, Steve?
Speaker A:I think I can do this.
Speaker C:35.
Speaker C:When I wrote my first word.
Speaker C:But I didn't get published till I was 47.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker C:There was 12 years from the day I wrote my first word to the day I sold my first word.
Speaker C:I wrote eight manuscripts, five went to New York houses, rejected 85 times.
Speaker C:I made it the 86th time 12 years after I started.
Speaker A:I have to let that sink in because people are sitting there, they're so used to, oh, I get this deal right away.
Speaker A:If I don't get it right away, Wait a minute, what's going on?
Speaker A:So 12 years.
Speaker C:85 rejections.
Speaker C:Yeah, it was a long process for me to get published.
Speaker C: I was published first in: Speaker C:Now I'm 27 books later.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So to that point, if you could go back and tell that younger Steve your best advice, personal advice, hey, Steve, come here.
Speaker A:I want to put my arm around you and give you a little.
Speaker A:What would it be?
Speaker C:Start sooner.
Speaker C:Start sooner.
Speaker C:I ignored the little voice in my head.
Speaker C:Every writer has a little voice in their head that tells them to write.
Speaker C:I ignored that voice for 10 years.
Speaker C:And so I wasted the 80s.
Speaker C:I wasted 10 years.
Speaker C:I could have gotten started sooner.
Speaker C:I might have got published sooner.
Speaker C:Might have had a little more, you know, a little more time before the e revolution took over and the industry changed, you know, but I didn't.
Speaker C:I ignored the voice.
Speaker C:So if you have that little voice in your head telling you to write, do not ignore it.
Speaker C:Sit down and do it.
Speaker A:I am so glad you said that because I was having this conversation with my wife inside the last two weeks, and we were talking about.
Speaker A:She goes, look at the evolution you've had.
Speaker A:I'm like, yeah, but these are all self published.
Speaker A:I haven't landed the big deals, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker A:She goes, yeah, but think about how long you've been at it.
Speaker A:And it.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:My mind went back to.
Speaker A:It was the late 80s, early 90s, when I would find myself in spare times just jotting down notes and I'm almost done.
Speaker A:And I thought, oh, I. I can't be a Steve Barry.
Speaker A:I can't be a James Patterson.
Speaker A:I'm not going to be a Michael Crichton.
Speaker A:These are all guys that I kind of looked up to.
Speaker A:And I'm like.
Speaker A:And I just went.
Speaker A:But to your point.
Speaker C:But you can.
Speaker A:But you can't.
Speaker C:But you can.
Speaker C:Yeah, you actually can.
Speaker C:That's the great thing about writing.
Speaker C:It's an acquired skill.
Speaker C:And you can acquire it.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, folks, if you want to learn more, go to steveberry.org that's O R G Steve.
Speaker A:Once again, the book is the list right here, folks.
Speaker A:You're going to pick it up.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for the gift of your time.
Speaker C:Thanks for having me.
Speaker C:It's out in stores everywhere.
Speaker C:Check it out.
Speaker A:Your number one podcast for stories that thrill the Thriller Zone.
