Unlocking Book Publishing Secrets with Agent Mark Gottlieb
On today's 221st and BONUS episode of The Thriller Zone, I dive into the nitty-gritty of the publishing world with my good friend Mark Gottlieb, Senior VP and top literary agent at Trident Media Group.
I'm your host Dave Temple, and Mark is back to drop some serious knowledge bombs about what it takes to make it as an author in today’s thriller-happy market. We chat about the importance of having a killer query letter—because let’s face it, that’s your golden ticket to getting noticed.
By the way, Mark's piece of advice is a step-by-step of THE WAY to formulate a proper query letter that all but guarantees getting noticed (don't miss this advice).
And if you’re wondering how to stand out, Mark has tips on building your author platform and navigating the wild ride of trends and genres. Plus, we share some laughs about parenting and the real-life stories behind some bestselling authors.
So grab your headphones, kick back, and let's unravel the secrets of crafting a page-turner in the ever-evolving literary landscape!
Takeaways:
• Mark Gottlieb, a seasoned literary agent, shares insider tips on navigating the publishing world, making it not just enlightening but super relatable too.
• We discussed the importance of strong query letters, emphasizing that a concise, well-structured letter can be the golden ticket to representation.
• The conversation touched on how authors must balance their unique voice with market trends while remaining authentic to their storytelling style.
• Mark highlighted the significance of an author's platform in today's publishing landscape, revealing how social media can skyrocket a book's visibility.
• Witty anecdotes about parenting and writing show that even seasoned pros like Mark can relate to the struggles of balancing life and creativity.
• The episode wraps up with a reminder to aspiring writers: set your intentions and keep showing up, because that's where the magic begins!
Links referenced in this episode:
TridentMediaGroup.com
TheThrillerZone.com
thethrillerzone@gmail.com
Companies mentioned in this episode:-
- Trident Media Group
- Poison Pen Press
- Sourcebooks
- Penguin Random House
- Hachette Books
- Timber Books
- Blackstone Publishing
- Keywords: thriller podcast, mystery fiction, suspense fiction, literary agent insights, book publishing tips, author representation, query letter advice, bestselling authors, writing craft, book marketing strategies, comp titles, publishing trends, writing workshops, thriller writing advice, negotiating book deals, audiobook publishing, self-publishing success, storytelling techniques, author platform building, negotiating literary contracts
Mentioned in this episode:
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The Story Factory
Presenting Adrian McKinty's new thriller in the Sean Duffy Series.
THE STORY FACTORY
Today's episode of The Thriller Zone with Dave Temple is sponsored by The Story Factory, an entertainment company representing many of the biggest fiction and non-fiction authors in the world.
Transcript
Hello, it's your friend Dave Temple welcoming you to another episode of the Thriller Zone.
Speaker A:That's right, your number one thriller, mystery and suspense fiction, film and TV podcast in the world.
Speaker A:Today I have the honor of welcoming my friend Mark Gottlieb, senior VP and literary agent at Trident Media Group.
Speaker A:Mark's back for a return visit to share some super tasty insights into the world of book publishing.
Speaker A:Now, what makes Mark an expert, you ask?
Speaker A:Well, he's built a distinguished career representing numerous New York Times bestselling and award winning authors at dmg where his experience includes foreign rights and audiobook departments.
Speaker A:As you will quickly learn, Mark has a strong track record in negotiating significant deals across various genres.
Speaker A:And besides all those accolades, he's just a super kind and down to earth man who still believes in the power of story.
Speaker A:Please welcome to the Thriller Zone, Mark Gottlieb.
Speaker A:First of all, let me say officially so we can get this thing rolling.
Speaker A:Cause I know you are a power player and I gotta respect the time.
Speaker A:Welcome back to the Thriller Zone, Mark Gottlieb.
Speaker B:It's really good to be back and thank you so much.
Speaker A:We have so much to cover today.
Speaker A:I do want to say too, last we spoke on the show, you had not had that handsome little son, right?
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Ian.
Speaker B:He's about six months old now and he's doing his teething.
Speaker B:So, you know, we're back to very little sleep at night, but it's okay.
Speaker A:Oh, I, I followed you on.
Speaker A:I think it was Instagram.
Speaker A:I was watching all the photographs and I'm like, there is a proud papa for sure.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:We put, put his books together and everything.
Speaker B:So I love reading to him.
Speaker B:You know that movie, Shrek was a book originally a children's picture book.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:And I think the William Stig, the author and illustrator, and he used it.
Speaker B:Shrek was originally serialized as cartoons in the New Yorker.
Speaker B:The children's picture book version's a little bit different.
Speaker B:I mean, you still have like the Donkey and Shrek and the Knight and all of that, but there's definitely a much more of an adult tinge of humor to it.
Speaker B:And I think the vocabulary is tough for kids, but it's hilarious.
Speaker B:Like, I laugh out loud while reading it to him.
Speaker A:When you first said that, you said you had a book for your son, I thought you were already inking a deal with him.
Speaker A:And I'm like, is he writing yet?
Speaker B:You know, I, I find that like parents who have kids, they suddenly they're, they're in tune with that audience.
Speaker B:And they, they're wanting to write those kinds of books because they're, they're reading them day in, day out.
Speaker B:But honestly been doing a lot of thrillers.
Speaker B:I started working with this guy, Daniel G.
Speaker B:Miller, who's a USA Today best selling author.
Speaker B:He has this book called the Orphanage by the Lake, which he had originally self published that book and he sold tons and tons of copies.
Speaker B:We got him moved over to Poison Pen Press.
Speaker B:It's part of Sourcebooks and they're majorly owned by, actually, I think now they might be completely owned by Penguin Random House.
Speaker B:And so he's happy they went back and bought some more books.
Speaker B:And he, you know, it's a, it's a big life change for him.
Speaker B:When he, when he came to New York to meet with me, he said he flew to my office, you know, he had changed his whole life.
Speaker B:He sold his, his dry cleaning business.
Speaker B:He, you know, moved to Miami and he was writing full time.
Speaker B:The self publishing was working out for him.
Speaker B:And he said to me, I want to be a number one New York Times bestselling author.
Speaker B:And I didn't laugh or I didn't make a face.
Speaker B:I didn't have any kind of reaction.
Speaker B:I didn't scoff or anything like that.
Speaker B:I just looked at him and I said, you know what, you're absolutely right to want to think that way because you need to be audacious for those sorts of things to happen.
Speaker B:Like Barack Obama, the title of his book was the Audacity of Hope.
Speaker B:You know, he had to have been thinking to himself at the time when he was running for president, like I'm going to be the first black president.
Speaker B:You know, if he wasn't thinking with that level of audacity, now it's not audacious anymore that he's done it, but you know, otherwise those things will never happen.
Speaker B:So I was so glad that to hear from someone that it's not like their, their head's too big, they just hold themselves in high esteem.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And, and he's on that track now, you know.
Speaker A:Well, I think there's a whole lot to be said for and I, I, I wholeheartedly believe in this, that you need to have a, a solid intention.
Speaker A:You have to really place in your mind, this is what I want, this is what I want more than anything.
Speaker A:I'm willing to make the sacrifices that it's going to take no matter what.
Speaker A:And if you start there, I think you have a better chance.
Speaker A:But I hear so many people go, oh I could never do that.
Speaker A:Well, you've already, you've already kind of set yourself up for that, haven't you?
Speaker B: he big word of what are we in: Speaker B:It was manifesting, you know, and I think that's a big part of it.
Speaker B:The same way they say 80% of success is just showing up.
Speaker B:I mean, I can't be on your podcast unless I show up here, so there's 80%.
Speaker B:But, you know, I do think, I think when you speak those words, they, you know, it's like saying something in the mirror and then it, you know, it slowly becomes a reality.
Speaker B:And so, you know, I'm, I'm finding that to be the case.
Speaker B:And, and I'm always trying to, you know, build people up.
Speaker B:Like, you know, I do, I do an online writing workshop around comp titles.
Speaker B:Like, how do you say my book is, you know, this meets that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What I hear from a lot of writers who I come across when we're talking about, you know, comparative or competitive book titles, comp titles, they say, well, I heard from someone I shouldn't compare myself to a bestseller because, you know, I could be, I could be laughed at, or they, they won't really believe me or take me seriously.
Speaker B:And I said, you know what?
Speaker B:You have to hold yourself in high esteem.
Speaker B:So, you know, I encourage them in that way.
Speaker A:And anyway, isn't that also an expeditious way to get to the point?
Speaker A:I mean, especially in an elevator pitch, if you've only got a matter of seconds to speak to someone and to pitch them, if you go, hey, it's, I'm looking behind you.
Speaker A:It's Logan's Run meets Shrek.
Speaker A:Okay, I'm just pulling that out.
Speaker A:Which sounds crazy, but you're like, you instantly because you're familiar with both Logan's Run and Shrek.
Speaker A:You went, oh, so it's Logan's Run meets Shrek in a, you know, Walt Disney Universe.
Speaker A:I'm so obscure.
Speaker A:The point being, you've now pulled a, a well known title.
Speaker A:A well known title and place it inside a well known world.
Speaker A:So it, it, it just jettisons you to the pitch instantly.
Speaker B:Oh, definitely.
Speaker B:I mean, I, I say to writers who, you know, maybe in a nervous moment, they've forgotten the hook, the quick pitch for their book.
Speaker B:Like some of them even I've seen on the, on the back of business cards, you know, they'll write it down so they don't forget.
Speaker B:And actually, this is my personal calling card.
Speaker B:This is not my, my Business card.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Just a little clever thing there is.
Speaker A: That same since: Speaker B: Since: Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B: Oh, sorry, it's: Speaker B:That's, that's still sprightly, I think for writers.
Speaker B:You, you're right.
Speaker B:They always fall back on the comp titles and I think, you know, a good one is, is like a, like a major best selling book published within the last five years, ideally, you know, a couple of those.
Speaker B:So I find that people sometimes will lean on that if they have to.
Speaker B:And you know, so it's, it's good to have those.
Speaker B:But beyond it being a way to hold your work in high esteem, you know, and publishing being a business too.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:You know, when publishers are running their numbers in their, these profit and loss statements, or we call them P L sheets, the, the magic numbers are going to plug in for how they're going to predict how a book could do is really going to be those, those comp titles.
Speaker B:So it's important to, to have that well in hand.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Have you come across a comp title, say in the last year or so that you went, wow, not only is that a riveting comp, but your story actually matches it?
Speaker B:Oh yeah.
Speaker B:I mean there, look, there are times where the comps could be far off, you know, where, where it matches.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker B:Will it ever be 100% spot on?
Speaker B:I mean, impossible because every author, every book is unique unto itself.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Can't really replicate everything, but if it even shares the Vegas aspect with the book, you know, it could be a reasonable comp.
Speaker B:And the main goal being this, it's to, to hold your work, you know, in, in high esteem, you know, and so if it, if it accomplished accomplishes that like it was a major bestseller or a major award winning book, then I think you could have a good comp on your hands.
Speaker A:And before I spin off of that comp story, does, have you ever, does this work?
Speaker A:Could you comp a major selling book and a hyper popular TV show like say for instance, Severance, which everybody's talking about.
Speaker B:Oh, I've been watching that.
Speaker B:I was just talking about that with someone.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So if you said, you know, you could give me a title like.
Speaker A:Okay, I'm trying to think of something.
Speaker A:Okay, I've got Adrian McKenty coming up on the show soon and he's got.
Speaker B:That'll be a good one.
Speaker A:Hang on, hang on.
Speaker A:St.
Speaker A:Christopher meets Severance.
Speaker A:Okay, now again, that's very obscure, but I'm just making the point of this world of A book.
Speaker A:Sean Duffy, in a corporate.
Speaker A:How do you.
Speaker B:I think you.
Speaker B:You get the point across that way.
Speaker B:But the thing is that publishers and agents, you know, they're trying to figure out, where does this book go on my list, where does it go in a bookstore, and how well might this book do?
Speaker B:And so in giving someone, like saying, my book is like this TV show or that movie or that song or that Broadway play, it doesn't help in the same way as if you gave a book so you'd be better off.
Speaker B:You know, for instance, I feel like a show.
Speaker B:And better yet, a book that has a lot of kinship with severance is, well, Blake Crouch, he wrote that book Dark Matter, and I think there were some, like, sequels or similar books that spun off of it.
Speaker B:So that might be like a better comp if someone were, you know, seeking something like that out.
Speaker B:It's funny.
Speaker B:Those are like the two shows I've been watching right now.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's a.
Speaker A:I know that I have done studies recently on the show, and I'm finding between the world of shortening attention spans, people drop out of the show quicker these days than they used to.
Speaker A:So there's a couple points I really want to get to that are essential to having this conversation.
Speaker A:And I know something about you and I.
Speaker A:We've built a friendship to where we could sit down and probably talk for several hours.
Speaker A:But A, you're a busy guy, don't have time.
Speaker A:B, we got other things to do and talk about.
Speaker A:But there's a couple things I don't want to gloss over.
Speaker A:What's it like to be a super agent?
Speaker A:Because you're going to think I'm spoofing on you, but you are one of the most prolific, powerful, popular, any other P word I can think of real quick agents in the world today at Triton Media Group.
Speaker A:So I want to say, I want to kind of get a glimpse of, you know, what's it like?
Speaker A:You could say a day in the life, or you could say how long it took me to get here.
Speaker A:As before we move on to the second, more even bigger point.
Speaker B:Well, I could.
Speaker B:I could tell people, yes, definitely a little bit of the day in the life of an agent.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And in getting here.
Speaker B:I mean, we talked about this too a little bit on the last show.
Speaker B:You know, my journey was a little bit different, unique or different from other people who might have kind of stumbled into publishing out of the humanities.
Speaker B:Although now, now a lot of schools have degrees, both undergraduate and graduate degrees in publishing.
Speaker B:I never thought to myself, like, oh gosh, I could get a master's degree in publishing.
Speaker B:And it's suddenly a new thing.
Speaker B:It's funny, if I went and got, went back to get that degree, I'd be sitting there thinking to myself, I should be teaching this class, sitting in it.
Speaker B:But anyway, yeah, I grew up in the family business.
Speaker B:Both my folks always worked in publishing, so I was always around books all my life, authors, books.
Speaker B:And so I studied publishing at college and started a small press and worked at Penguin Books and then worked my way up at the agency and built out a big client list.
Speaker B:I mean, these are some of them, not all of them, but a lot of the books I've worked on behind me there, I had to make room on the bookshelf.
Speaker B:So there's some stacks over there.
Speaker B:But yeah, you know, a day in the life of an agent.
Speaker B:What's that like?
Speaker B:You know, that's the interesting thing.
Speaker B:You, you could walk into the office and never know what's, what's going to be coming your way.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:But you know, some of the regular reoccurring stuff, you know, we're, we're doing outreach, like trying to sign new clients to the agency all the time, be they, you know, coming our way by referrals or query letters or, you know, what we're reading and seeing online or whatever, you know, so signing up clients to the agency and then working with them to prepare their manuscripts to be submitted to publishers.
Speaker B:So we craft a pitch with them, you know, work on a submission list with them, go out on submission field offers from publishers.
Speaker B:And I can tell you that publishers getting a submission from Trident, they perk right up because of the clout of the agency.
Speaker B:They know our work.
Speaker B:So we get good deals for authors, good contracts, and we help the author through the publishing process too.
Speaker B:So it's sort of like, I suppose what a talent agent would do out west, only we do for authors and books.
Speaker B:And we're situated here in New York City where book publishing is.
Speaker B:This is really the heart of, of major trade book publishing.
Speaker A:Well, if anybody goes to your website, I had not been to your website recently and I'm.
Speaker A:If you go to the homepage, tritonmedia group.com.
Speaker A:it's just, it's a who's who of some of the best, biggest books out there, many of whom who have been on the show, which was an extra little bonus to me, feeling kind of proud of that.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:So one of the other great things about Triton Media Group is you represent a bevy of Non fiction authors as well as fiction.
Speaker A:You know, a lot of people go in this world, thriller fiction, you know, that's, that's our whole world.
Speaker A:But I'm like, be aware of the fact that there is a volume of non fiction books out there.
Speaker A:Do you have a ratio of what is more popular at a moment in time or something that sells better?
Speaker A:Or is that just literally as the wind blows?
Speaker B:Oh, gosh.
Speaker B:Well, I mean the wind does blow in publishing, but it blows like a breeze, not like a gust maybe or it's very kind of slow moving.
Speaker B:Not to say it's not strong or anything.
Speaker B:It's just, you know, things don't really turn on a dime in publishing.
Speaker B:But you know, we work in a range of spaces, like you say, between fiction, nonfiction, even children's books and graphic novels.
Speaker B:You know, nonfiction has always been very subject driven and you know, sort of who the writer's platform is.
Speaker B:You know, fiction is always going to be really driven by quality of writing and storytelling.
Speaker B:And then by extension of that, an author becomes a brand or a household name.
Speaker B:And the interesting thing is that I find in fiction, commercial fiction, be it, you know, thrillers or romance or sci fi, fantasy, whatever, it's sort of like the industry is very sort of reactionary in a way.
Speaker B:A big title comes about and not until another one happens does the industry really adjust or change to that.
Speaker B:Like when Dan Brown wrote the Da Vinci Code, suddenly publishers were on to wanting to do more historical kind of treasure hunting, thriller sorts of books.
Speaker B:Or when Gillian Flynn wrote Gone Girl, publishing really got stuck on domestic noir, domestic suspense, which oddly enough, it's still really stuck on.
Speaker B:And publishing is kind of, I think, feeling like sort of fatigued by it.
Speaker B:And yet those books keep going and going.
Speaker B:And so I don't know what will sort of come about to be the next big thing.
Speaker B:No one can predict that.
Speaker B:But when it arrives, you know, I don't want to say there's a lot of mimicry in publishing, but every publisher and author will be thinking to themselves, where's my version of that book?
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:So that's what it takes to reinvent like a given genre.
Speaker B:A book that really lifts the entire industry, be it like a Colleen Hoover, you know, or someone like that.
Speaker A:Have you, did you notice?
Speaker A:Of course you noticed.
Speaker A:What a silly question.
Speaker A:When Gone Girl had its stratospheric success, it seems like every book for a long time had the word girl in it.
Speaker B:Yeah, there are in fact there are still some books that are doing that.
Speaker B:And I think it's you know, it's not for any kind of lack of creativity, but I think it's meant as like a kind of branding cue to readers as to say this book is like that big best selling book over there.
Speaker B:You know, it kind of goes back to the thing in a way, you know, same thing with DaVinci Code.
Speaker B:After the DaVinci Code, there are all these books with the word code in it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, so it's sort of like, I don't want to say knockoff brands, but you know, so that people can, can understand at a glance what kind of book it is.
Speaker A:Well, and to that point, I want to go to one of my very first, what I call official questions because I'll write some down and a lot of them I'm going to just go off the cuff like you and I do.
Speaker A:But this has to do with assessing author potential.
Speaker A:So when evaluating a new author comes into your office and across your desk, what specific writing qualities do you find makes you confident that they're worth the investment of your time, energy, resources for representation?
Speaker B:Well, there are a few different things I'll look at from an author.
Speaker B:You know, obviously quality of writing, quality of storytelling, which is different than writing.
Speaker B:You know, storytelling I think concerns itself more so with things like plot and stuff like that.
Speaker B:Quality of writing is like, how well can this person write a sentence?
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:Do they understand basic grammar?
Speaker B:Things like that.
Speaker B:You know, I'll look at, sometimes I'll look at the author's credentials, like what's their writing experience?
Speaker B:Like, what's their background in writing?
Speaker B:Did they, did they go and get that mfa?
Speaker B:Have they published in literary magazines and journals?
Speaker B:You know, if they're a thriller writer or mystery, crime thriller writer, you know, if they've written for Ellery Queen magazine, that's a fantastic, you know, publication, you know, or if they've written for the Strand magazine, stuff like that.
Speaker B:You know, if they're non fiction author, we take their platform into consideration and other things.
Speaker B:But basically, you know, it's gotta be good writing and good storytelling at the end of the day.
Speaker A:Perfect.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And to that point, the talking about the role of author platform.
Speaker A:And I remember when I went through my first thriller fest and you everything was about platform and how critical do you think it is today?
Speaker A:And I know it's shifted over the last decade.
Speaker A:How critical is an author's existing platform or public presence, however you want to put it in your decision to offer representation?
Speaker A:And what advice do you give authors looking to build that compelling a word that my wife and I always kid that people overuse compelling platform.
Speaker B:That's the interesting thing.
Speaker B:I mean, platform used to always be concerned with nonfiction books.
Speaker B:And then sort of this very odd thing I'm finding now more and more is that publishers get excited by the thought of an author who already had a fiction author who already has a big platform with the audience, you know, kind of baked in.
Speaker B:Like, you're seeing a lot of these.
Speaker B:These people who are basically TikTok personalities.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:Writing books and them going on to become bestsellers because, you know, at the flip of a switch, they could tell all their followers to go and buy the book.
Speaker B:You know, it's a.
Speaker B:It's probably a mixed bag.
Speaker B:Like, some of it is people who are buying a book to own a piece of that author, own a piece of that brand, and then other people who.
Speaker B:Who know it.
Speaker B:Maybe it's good storytelling and good writing.
Speaker B:Like, I have a client, Kelsey Impicici, who.
Speaker B:I found her on TikTok, because I.
Speaker B:I browse TikTok from time to time, looking for new potential authors.
Speaker B:And what she's actually known for is she's got millions of followers, but she plays video games for a living and records herself playing video games.
Speaker B:Remember that game, the Sims?
Speaker A:Oh, sure, yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so she plays that.
Speaker B:She's very good at it.
Speaker B:She had a column for A while on BuzzFeed, Newsweek, BuzzFeed, doing, you know, writing, like, some comedic stuff.
Speaker B:And anyway, I had reached out to her completely, thinking maybe she would want to do a nonfiction book about video games.
Speaker B:Well, turns out she was working on a romantasy book called Voice of the Ocean, and, you know, it's kind of like a dark retelling of the Little Mermaid.
Speaker B:We sold it to a publisher.
Speaker B:They're very excited about it.
Speaker B:They're backing it in a big way.
Speaker B:They've.
Speaker B:They've already bought, like, a couple books from her.
Speaker B:They went back and bought more.
Speaker B:So there's a little bit of that going on, too, which is.
Speaker B:I don't want to say it's volatility in the marketplace, but, you know, what's unique or different about it is it's kind of like Johnny Depp having a really big following of his own.
Speaker B:When he stars in a movie, he's not just a recognizable face.
Speaker B:He brings a lot of other stuff to the table.
Speaker B:The same way that people might make an argument that baseball players are overpaid.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:There's no salary cap on it.
Speaker B:But a baseball player, what they bring to the table is everyone in that stadium showed up to watch them play.
Speaker B:And the people who benefit are the people who are selling the merch and selling the food.
Speaker B:Everything in the stadium, that ecosystem exists around them and because of them.
Speaker B:So it's different than someone who's stumbling out of an MFA program and no one's ever heard that person's name.
Speaker B:How is the publisher going to market an author like that?
Speaker B:That presents its own set of challenges.
Speaker B:So, yeah, the Internet is creating some interesting chaos.
Speaker A:Sure, sure.
Speaker A:And something I've been watching lately is substack.
Speaker A:So substack is a great way that someone like me as an author, indie author, could do a series on a substack.
Speaker A:And if you just happen to have people who follow you, who are interested in your storytelling, your audience grows.
Speaker A:And then beyond that, if you are savvy enough and people really want you enough, then they might pay for a subscription.
Speaker A:Either way, anything, in my opinion, is anything that gets eyeballs.
Speaker A:And engagement, that's.
Speaker A:That's the number one name of the game.
Speaker A:Now, yes, the quality has to be there.
Speaker A:Yes, the consistency has to be there.
Speaker A:Yes, you got to have a pretty decent mind for marketing.
Speaker A:But I think back to our very first initial conversation.
Speaker A:If you.
Speaker A:If you set the intention and you really hone and practice every day.
Speaker A:Practice meaning just getting in the chair and writing, then I think that's more than half of the battle, don't you?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's the same thing.
Speaker B:That 80% of success is showing up.
Speaker B:I forget who said.
Speaker B:But if every day you wrote one page, end of the year, you have a full book.
Speaker B:365 days, 365 pages.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The substack thing is very interesting thing because the Internet presents all these opportunities for writers to kind of further monetize their work.
Speaker B:There's this author I work with, Christopher Brown, who he's a Philip K.
Speaker B:Dick Award nominee.
Speaker B:He tends to write kind of literary, speculative thrillers.
Speaker B: n with this book, I think, in: Speaker B:The premise of the book was that a telegenic businessman of a dictator becomes president of the United States and tells us to build walls between us and Canada, between us and Mexic.
Speaker B:We build those walls, and little do we realize the next thing we know, we're being policed by aerial drones.
Speaker B:And those walls weren't meant to keep people out.
Speaker B:They were meant to keep people in and I mean, we're kind of like living this, you know, today.
Speaker B:I mean, it's.
Speaker B:It's pretty wild.
Speaker A:Orwellian.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:He editors were like, how could you have predicted this?
Speaker B:He said, I just tried to imagine the scariest thing possible, and we're living it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But he created a substack where he was writing about nature and living in Austin, Texas.
Speaker B:And he has a fascinating home that's been in some Apple TV documentary and some architectural magazines and things like that.
Speaker B:And a lot of people in publishing and writers were following his substack.
Speaker B:And it became apparent to us that he had to do a nonfiction book around this.
Speaker B:And so I actually have the book, you know, right here.
Speaker B:I could grab a couple.
Speaker A:Yeah, let me see it.
Speaker B:Let's see.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:While Mark finds the book, let's take a short break.
Speaker A:We'll be right back.
Speaker B:Welcome back to the Thriller Zone.
Speaker B:So this is a natural history of empty lots.
Speaker A:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:Field notes from urban edgelands, back alleys and other wild places.
Speaker B:He had done this book with Hachette Books.
Speaker B:They have an imprint there called Timber Books.
Speaker B:And we got the nice quotes on the back like Vandermeer and Kelly Link and others.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, this started completely as a substack.
Speaker A:And how apropos that the publishing company is Timber Books on lots and homes.
Speaker B:Oh, well, you know, because their whole thing, this publishing imprint, they're all about books about nature and things like that.
Speaker B:And actually that's his home.
Speaker A:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:Of the book there, it looks like.
Speaker A:A Frank Lloyd Wright.
Speaker B:Oh, it's fascinating.
Speaker B:It's almost like, you know, what, kind of like a hobbit house.
Speaker B:It's built into the land so it's naturally heated and cooled by the earth.
Speaker B:And they have a saltwater pool, so it doesn't require any kind of chlorine or anything like that.
Speaker B:So the animals can still be around the pool and stuff like that.
Speaker B:And then what he did with this property that he bought in Austin, Texas, because he's a bit of an ecologist, he rewilded the land.
Speaker B:So he introduced wild flora and fauna that you could only find in the far out wilds of Texas and right in the middle of the city of Austin, I mean, his whole property is fenced in, but there are wild animals all around.
Speaker B:And I love it.
Speaker B:It's pretty cool.
Speaker B:The other book I mentioned earlier, you know, the TikTok Star who, you know, did this book, Voice of the Ocean, this is with Blackstone.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:You know, some nice quotes on the back there.
Speaker B:Too, from Colleen Hauck and Brian Chick.
Speaker B:But, yeah, this.
Speaker B:This kind of started online as well in TikTok.
Speaker B:So you never know.
Speaker A:I mean, you never know.
Speaker B:Putting yourself out there, that's the thing.
Speaker A:Put yourself out there, follow your dreams, set your intentions.
Speaker A:And, you know, I wanted to make this comment.
Speaker A:I didn't want to make it sound like it's all about me, but I remember when I first.
Speaker A:When I was about 15 years old, I wanted to be on the radio.
Speaker A:I knew that's what I wanted to do.
Speaker A:My voice had changed way early.
Speaker A:I had that ability to think quick on my feet.
Speaker A:I used to, you know, sit in the closet with a hairbrush and pretend I was on the radio.
Speaker A:But that's.
Speaker A:That's what I wanted to do.
Speaker A:And I'm like, I don't care what it takes, but I want to be in at least five of the top 10 radio markets in the world before I reach 40.
Speaker A:I mean, that was all that was at 6, 15, 16.
Speaker A:And I did it.
Speaker A:And my point is not to toot my horn, but to say, set your intentions and come from a place of honesty and passion.
Speaker A:Not, oh, I want to be a rock star, you know, yeah, maybe you want to be a rock star.
Speaker A:But my point is, set the intention.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:So I applaud that.
Speaker A:And I love the fact that these people were just following their dreams, doing their passions, and then the wave came to them.
Speaker B:After you set those intentions, you got to sort of wake up every morning and be doing those things.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, Kelsey had already fully written this book.
Speaker B:There's a video she made online where she talks about what it was like experiencing rejection and then finally finding her publisher.
Speaker B:And actually, we got the quote on the front from Sherilyn Kenyon, number one New York Times bestselling author.
Speaker B:So, yeah, she's happy about it.
Speaker B:But I think there's also a lot more to it in terms of fiction.
Speaker B:Like, you gotta know your craft and, you know, and the movements within the marketplace, too, you know.
Speaker A:Now, you've heard this phrase, we talk about this on the show.
Speaker A:Writing to market.
Speaker A:If you see something that's popular and you sit down, it may not even be your wheelhouse, but you will write to that market knowing that you're going to spend somewhere between six months and probably two years to get that book into process.
Speaker A:A lot of the folks like yourself in your position say, don't do that, because the market may shift at any given moment.
Speaker A:Do you agree with that?
Speaker B:Pretty much, yes and no.
Speaker B:Publishing being slow, moving you know, and even, and even.
Speaker B:Even the amount of time it takes for a book to get out there.
Speaker B:Most publishers aren't looking to publish at least for 12 to 18 months, either from date of a signed contract or delivery of manuscript.
Speaker B:But, you know, I think if you're going to try and ride the crest of a wave, you got to be just kind of almost right out there near the crest.
Speaker B:Like, if you're too far out from the wave, that's it.
Speaker B:You won't really catch the wave.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So, so that's.
Speaker B:Timing is key with that stuff.
Speaker B:Like even people being, you know, romanticly sucking all the oxygen up in the room or, you know, books about Donald Trump in the nonfiction space sucking all production up in the room.
Speaker B:If you're going to try and be one of those books, it's hard to stand out in that crowded marketplace.
Speaker B:I always believed it's better to be the one making the waves.
Speaker B:I'd rather be Dan Brown than one of his imitators.
Speaker B:That being said, it's hard to make those waves, and sometimes people will want to try and write to the market, so I can understand that.
Speaker B:But, yeah, you got to be kind of early to the party if you can get there.
Speaker A:I like your metaphor for the catching the wave because being here in San Diego, I sit there on the cliffs and I watch the surfers because I'm not going to get there and do that.
Speaker A:And it's.
Speaker A:It's so amazing to me how long they will sit and they will.
Speaker A:They will catch little tiny bits of it, but they know when the.
Speaker A:When the water is moving at such a certain way that if they time it just right, they can catch that wave.
Speaker A:And that's always been fascinating to me.
Speaker A:So, folks, think about it as you're writing your book.
Speaker A:Now, you.
Speaker A:We mentioned something early on, and I want to make sure I cover this before we bail out of here.
Speaker A:And it has to do with query letters because, man, you and I could spend an entire hour just on that.
Speaker A:But my question is, what common mistakes do you think authors make in their query letters?
Speaker A:A, B?
Speaker A:And what components do you believe are essential to crafting those letters that truly capture your attention?
Speaker B:Well, the funny thing about that is there's so much you could do wrong with a query letter that.
Speaker B:Why.
Speaker B:Why suffer and toil over worrying about all the things you can do wrong when you could just focus on the things that can be done right?
Speaker B:You know, that's how.
Speaker B:How I.
Speaker B:It could be.
Speaker B:I'm a glass half full kind of guy.
Speaker B:You Know, sure.
Speaker B:I try to be an optimist.
Speaker B:And so I mean what I think is a good query letter is it fits all in one page, you know, up front.
Speaker B:Actually, if I were to read out like an imaginary query letter to you, maybe something like dear so and so I'm seeking representation for my debut novel titled Blank for readers of Blank and Blank.
Speaker B:Those are those comp titles in which.
Speaker B:And then you give a quick one line pitch of what the book's about and then maybe a body paragraph or two about some of the exciting plot details of the book without too many major spoilers.
Speaker B:Then the last paragraph of the letter, basically a one paragraph author bio listing off relevant writing experience, writing credentials, and you thank them.
Speaker B:Close out the letter, include your contact details and you have a perfect letter.
Speaker B:It flows, the most important information's up front, all fits on one page.
Speaker B:And you know, if you, if you.
Speaker B:I think, I'm not saying it's one size fits all.
Speaker B:We have sold a lot of books off of that kind of method though.
Speaker B:But I think it will free people up in a lot of ways not to have to worry about all the rest if they kind of try to approach it through a framework like that.
Speaker A:That deserves a little golf clap because that just nailed it, right?
Speaker B:I'm going to add that to my repertoire.
Speaker B:Golf clap, I like that.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker B:Got to get the green blazer to go with it.
Speaker A:Hey, that's just around the corner.
Speaker A:By the way, as I close, I always ask my writers, my authors, what's your best writing advice?
Speaker A:But for you, I, I'm gonna sit on the fence because I want to know your best advice for aspiring thriller writers as it pertains to.
Speaker A:And we're going to go back to the notes we made, making sure your platform is intact, that you are or are not writing, perhaps that you're, you're, you're aware of trends and genre demands, et cetera.
Speaker A:Your query letter is all buttoned up and kind of putting all that into one big heap.
Speaker A:What's that best advice you could offer?
Speaker B:Honestly?
Speaker B:Yeah, I think, you know, for authors writing in the thriller space, which is actually a very competitive marketplace, obviously, you know, like I said before, great writing, great storytelling, that, that goes without saying, but I think you've got to be attuned to the craft of writing within a genre and the needs of the marketplace.
Speaker B:Like you mentioned thriller Fest and that being a great event and actually it's right here in New York City, so it's in the heart of book publishing.
Speaker B:And there's some other good thriller related events all over the country.
Speaker B:Someone said to me, as mystery crime thriller writers, if they have one choice, it should be Bouchercon because it's great for networking and that event moves all over the country each year.
Speaker B:I hear there's left coast crime and other ones, but those are great events and, you know, I feel like the audience will come, but you have to also just have a vision for the future.
Speaker B:Like that guy who, he came to my office and he was, he was imagining his future self or I think Michael Jordan did the same thing.
Speaker B:He would, he would kind of project a vision of him himself, like, you know, dunking the ball or whatever it was he was going to do.
Speaker B:So I think that's really important.
Speaker B:If you don't have the platform, at least be conceiving of one, you know, all these steps toward these goals.
Speaker A:Man, that is so good.
Speaker A:See, Mark, you're, you're, you're a wealth, a fount of knowledge and wisdom.
Speaker B:Well, and you've got the voice for this show.
Speaker B:I wish I had a radio voice.
Speaker B:That would be pretty cool, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah, I might have the voice, but you got the smarts and you're sitting in the big office, in the big chair in the big apple.
Speaker A:So how you doing?
Speaker B:Hey, you know, I love, I love mystery crime thrillers.
Speaker B:I think they're a great group of writers.
Speaker B:They are, they're the, some of the toughest writers out there.
Speaker B:Like, they've got a lot of grit and stamina about them because they know that, you know, it's not easy.
Speaker B:And so I have a lot of respect for writers and how hard they work and, and when someone gets, gets to that point like that.
Speaker B:I mentioned that guy, Daniel G.
Speaker B:Miller.
Speaker B:There are other clients here, you know, I'm very happy for them.
Speaker B:That's the best feeling in the world, cheering someone on toward the finish line and all that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You have such a wonderful job and an opportunity to, you know, going back to your glass half full, to be able to lift the spirits of writers who are truly talented and to be able to sit there and applaud them and push them forward.
Speaker A:What a great place to be.
Speaker A:I'm sitting here thinking about, you're going to drop somewhere on the tube.
Speaker A:220.
Speaker A:221.
Speaker A:222.
Speaker A:Whatever it takes of the show.
Speaker A:And I think back June will mark four years this podcast has been going.
Speaker A:And I think of all the hundreds of authors I've spoken to, the hundreds of books that I've read and a few things I have learned, and I want to see how it bounces off with you.
Speaker A:Like, if somebody just said, hey, come speak in front of a group, this is what I'd say.
Speaker A:You can tell often, often by the first chapter nowadays, by the first page, and more often than not by the first paragraph, when somebody really knows what they're doing.
Speaker A:And I can name off right now 5 books I've read just since we turn into the New Year that I thought, you know, I look at.
Speaker A:Maybe I judge a book by its cover a little bit too much, or I, I read some of the blurb and I'm like, yeah, whatever.
Speaker A:But I can tell you when I get to that one paragraph, I'm like, you've got me so pulled in that I cannot not double negative, not turn that page to keep going.
Speaker A:And nine times out of 10, you got me hooked.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, James Patterson's a great example of that.
Speaker B:I mean, his books are like potato chips.
Speaker B:And every page, every paragraph, sentence and word within them, like they're, they're written to be, you know, just addictive brain candy.
Speaker B:And, you know, but even if you read the classics, like when I first picked up Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky, same thing.
Speaker B:In reading the first paragraph, you're like, you know, you're in the hands of a master.
Speaker B:Like, it's incredible.
Speaker B:So, you know, it's so cool.
Speaker B:And yeah, you know, James, congratulations, too.
Speaker B:I want to say I should have started with that four years and all the writers you've had on the show and the books, you know, you've read to familiarize yourself with them and their work.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:That's an incredible achievement.
Speaker B:So I'm.
Speaker B:Congratulations again.
Speaker A:Well, thank you.
Speaker A:And I'll tell you, you can tell the difference between when you can really absorb the book and then throw it and engage in a conversation back to the author versus when you're flying through it.
Speaker A:But I remember Jim James kicked off our, our eighth season in January on the show here, which was a huge honor because he's the guy who kind of, he lit the fire in me where I.
Speaker A:Between he and Michael Crichton.
Speaker A:I'm like, I can do this.
Speaker A:I can be a writer.
Speaker A:It's going to take a while.
Speaker A:But I, I, I.
Speaker A:And I said this to him, and it was funny to watch him go, yeah, yeah, fanboy.
Speaker A:But he said, you know, the key is, you know, I think he quoted Elmore Leonard.
Speaker A:Cut out the stuff nobody wants to read.
Speaker A:And the other thing is just be concise, tell me the story.
Speaker A:Don't get so wrapped up in the floral diatribes and the voluminous backstory.
Speaker A:Just tell me the story that's happening.
Speaker A:And when you hear that and you absorb it and you really take it to heart, you go, there's the magic.
Speaker B:Yeah, he's great at outlining things like that.
Speaker B:You mentioned Jim.
Speaker B:I'll show you just one more thing here, let me grab it from my shell.
Speaker A:Grab it.
Speaker B:Okay, let's see.
Speaker B:Is it here?
Speaker B:Or I might even have it in this bag.
Speaker A:Take your time.
Speaker B:So that author I mentioned before, Daniel G.
Speaker B:Miller, who came to my office, he said, I want to be, you know, a number one New York Times best selling authority.
Speaker B:Look who gave him a quote on the top of the book there.
Speaker A:Bam.
Speaker B:I don't know how often, you know, James Patterson really gives out blurbs or quotes like that.
Speaker B:So when we got a quote from, from Jim, we were like, we gotta put that right on the top front cover, at the top of the COVID That's a selling blurb right there.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:And the fact that it's one word, irresistible, says volumes.
Speaker A:Yeah, look at that.
Speaker A:Now, before we go, because I, I gotta drill down on this.
Speaker A:I was gonna let it go, but I really want to drill down on this because I've read some diatribes recently, go, oh, why do we spend so much time worried about blurbs?
Speaker A:And I found myself listening to the angel and the Devil on my shoulders, you know, oh, it really matters because it, you know, if I pick it up and I go, james Patterson liked it.
Speaker A:It must say something.
Speaker A:The devil.
Speaker A:Yeah, but how, how often do those actually come from the author?
Speaker A:Or are they bought or are they, you know, reductive from somewhere, another conversation?
Speaker B:So I remember there was some, definitely some back and forth online about it.
Speaker B:There's someone in publishing who is young and new and wants, I think, to be a bit like of an iconoclast, you could say.
Speaker B:And to their credit, they have some good ideas.
Speaker B:You know, they're an interesting person.
Speaker B:They got where they are for a reason.
Speaker B:But, you know, there's a reason why people do outreach for blurbs.
Speaker B:You know, if you get a blurb from Stephen King or Jim, James Patterson, that's a big selling blurb.
Speaker B:But if you're laboriously doing it and you're getting blurbs from names that might not help as much, then I can see why that would eat up time.
Speaker B:So basically, the short of it is, yeah, there was a publisher, them being Simon and Schuster, who suddenly made an announcement.
Speaker B:We're not going to require you to do outreach for blurbs anymore.
Speaker B:And an author, a thriller author, I think it may have been Rebecca Mackay or someone spoke out, saying, now, wait a minute, I work really hard to get blurbs.
Speaker B:You know, I give blurbs.
Speaker B:And it's an important part of what we do.
Speaker B:There's some use in it.
Speaker B:You know, some people said, well, it doesn't sell books.
Speaker B:I mean, I think it sells books.
Speaker B:And, you know, why would people do it if it didn't make any sense?
Speaker B:You know, if you can show me the data, if you can show me the real research, you know, that speaks to the fact that blurbs don't sell books, then absolutely, you have an argument there.
Speaker B:But otherwise, I mean, I think someone's going to pick this book up, see James Patterson's name and want to buy the book.
Speaker A:Yeah, I probably would.
Speaker A:I'd be that guy.
Speaker B:I got to send you a copy.
Speaker B:Then after this, send me your address.
Speaker B:I'll mail you a copy.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I am sorry that we did not.
Speaker A:Yet again, I feel I'm embarrassed about this because I told you on our last conversation that I really wanted to do the London Book Fair with you because I'm like, of anybody who's going to be there, I wanted to hang there with you.
Speaker B:A good.
Speaker B:A good one.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:I'm going to put it on my calendar for next year.
Speaker A:That is my hope.
Speaker A:That is my dream.
Speaker A:Because it's, you know.
Speaker A:Yes, there are a lot of fairs here in the States, but that one particular you said, I remember you saying specifically, boy, that is one fun to attend.
Speaker B:Yeah, a lot of international publishers converge there.
Speaker B:Same with the Frankfurt Book Fair.
Speaker B:There's some in the US that are pretty good.
Speaker B:Like, I checked out awp.
Speaker B:And I loved that event this past year.
Speaker B:It was in Los Angeles, which is, I think, a great town for that because you get an interesting cross section of people there.
Speaker B:Probably, if I had to guess, there were a lot of film and tv, like, media kind of people converging with book publishing people, you know.
Speaker A:Well, Mark, thank you so much for the gift of your time.
Speaker A:It's always just a genuine pleasure to hang out with you.
Speaker B:Likewise.
Speaker B:This is fun.
Speaker B:And congrats again.
Speaker B:It's wonderful.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Now, how would you like a sneak peek into next week's guest to the Thriller Zone?
Speaker A:I'll give you two guesses in the form of two names, a first and a last.
Speaker A:Sean Duffy.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:That's the lead character's name, but the New York Times bestselling author behind that character is Adrian McKenty, someone I have been trying to get on this podcast for a very long time.
Speaker A:So join us next week when I sit down with the guy who's coming off two back to back bestsellers with the Chain and the Island.
Speaker A:Now, last thing before I go, would you consider doing your pal here a favor and dropping me a line@the thrillerzone.com just let me know if you're liking the show, what you're liking most about the show and whether you'd like to continue hearing more of this podcast.
Speaker A:It won't take but two minutes, but it'll mean a whole lot.
Speaker A:The website is the thrillerzone.com our email is thethrillerzonemail.com and while you're there, be sure to subscribe.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:I'm Dave Temple.
Speaker A:I'll see you next week for another riveting episode of the Thriller Zone, your number one podcast for stories that thrill the Thriller Zone.
